D&D 5E Favored Enemy needs a simple Damage +2

[SilverfireSage]

I read through the entire thread.

Any case for the Beastmaster is weak at best and wishful thinking at worst.

(For example: the poor HP and defenses of the beast is not a problem, the argument goes. Provided the DM goes out of his way not to hurt the beast. *rolls eyes*)

I suppose I'll give it a try and answer some of your points, though I'm curious as to why you're so hostile. In an above post you say anyone trying to make the case that it's fine is trolling. Maybe we're just trying to see the developers rationale?

Most of the thread is actually the same complaints you see here. And they're not meaningfully addressed.

When you can't defend a class feature even when you're trying to be as naive or apologetic as possible, that's having the opposite effect on me: it all but confirms all our misgivings about that feature.

Calling someone naive or apologetic for making a post defending a class feature is somewhat crass. Did my post offend you in some way?

Again, the Beastmaster's main problem isn't any numerical inferiority. It's how restrictive and gamey and plain unfun it feels to play. That can't simply be explained away.

See, I was responding purely to complaints about numerical inferiority, which seems to be what everyone seems to get hung up on. I demonstrated through clear math and examples that there are few offensive deficiencies, and a few defensive deficiencies, but none of them major. You are free to respond with your own examples, but simply saying I'm naive for believing this class May in fact be good does nothing to further the conversation.

What the Beastmaster needs is this:

1) acknowledge that a free-willed, level-appropriate AC beast is and will be slightly overpowered

and then

2) make the subclass optional, explicitly requiring your DM's approval to play.

You realize how angry people would be if the beast master wasn't core? Or how many posts there would be about banning the beast master for being too powerful? how is making it optional any better than simply making it balanced?

3) explicitly mention how the beast could disrupt play for some groups, with how having two characters in one can hog attention and demand more than your fair share of DM attention.

Again, how is this any better than simply making the class balanced and not hogging the DMs attention in the first place?

But make the beast work and act how people expect and want it to play!

By which I assume you mean how people expect it to play based on previous editions, because I have people who have played this for the first time and have zero issues with the beast master.

It absolutely needs it's own action.

You have yet to explain why.

It probably needs better hp and defenses, but that could become problematic, so perhaps it flees or cowers at 0 hp instead of death. Any way you solve it, you absolutely cannot be expected to have your friend be killed in every other encounter.

Then why not do that? Or give it death saves like a person? This is the only complaint you have about the defenses, so why do you suddenly have to make it better offensively too when this is the only necessary change?

But most of all the 4e abomination of taking its master's action needs to be killed or buried. Better to restrict it to home play and have a proper animal that in no way is worse(!) than any other means of getting allies.

I posted my naive and trolling reasons why the beast master is "fine", now it's your turn to do the opposite if you wish to continue this discussion.

 

[Coredump]

I see you conveniently skipped over several issues... but okay, lets look at these

Conjure Voley spell >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ranger's Voley level 11.
8d8 damage in 20 feets radius VS 1d8 +5/+8 damage in 10 feets radius

Yeah, no kidding. Flame Strike and Fireball are also better than the Ranger's Volley.... so what. I think everyone agrees that the bard is better at casting AoE damage spells than the Ranger is. Has nothing to do with being a "better archer"

Bard can use Tree Stride for Flee too.

Congrats. Using a 5th level spell to run away does not make the bard a "better archer"... better spell caster, sure...better at running away, no doubt. But okay, if you are in an area with a lot of fairly large trees, then you could use this 5th level spell to move around or run away..... not seeing your point, a blink dog is not a very good archer either.

A Ranger before level 17 can not abuse their voley shots because we have not learned Swift Quiver and level 17 Bard can use 7 Conjure Volley per day, Ranger only 1.

Ranger can use Volley just fine at level 11, Swift Quiver is nice, but has no interaction with Volley.



I see you have gone down from 9 to 7 castings, and have gone up from lvl 11 to lvl 17... but still don't see how you are getting 7 Conjure Volley.
I could see 6 if you want to burn your lvl 6-9 slots on a level 5 spell. But hell, at that point, just cast fireballs all day... they even scale damage. But in any of these cases... they have nothing to do with being a better *archer*, they are about casting spells for area damage.

And lets not forget, by lvl 17 we are talking +2 bow, Hunters Mark, 20 Dex, Sharpshooter.
So the Bard's Conjure Volley has a range of 150 feet, and will do an average of 36 hp, 18 hp on a Dex save.
The Ranger has a range of *600* feet, is doing 15 hp per hit, and 25 hp if its worth using the -5+10 aspect. The ranger can do this each round, every round... not worrying about spell slots. And can do this all day at 11th level, when the Bard only has at most 3 slots total for Conjure Volley and Tree slide, and swift quiver.

And of course, before 10th level, the Bard doesn't have any of these spells.....

 

[Coredump]

snip a bunch of stuff.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying the Beast master is a well written subclass, nor that the Animal Companion is overly useful, I'm just saying that trying to claim the Paladin's mount is better is off the mark.

Yes, the Mount can 'help', but that just means it dies round 1 and you have to prepare the spell again tomorrow to get him back.

Its a *great* mount... not a very good animal companion.

That said, I think the BM should be able to give 'free' simple commands to the AC... it can tell it exactly where to move...it should be able to say 'attack' or 'defend' or whatever.

 

[Umbran]

Anyone trying to claim the Beastmaster subclass is "fine" is trolling, as far as I'm concerned.

A position that equates to, "anyone disagreeing with me is trolling," while likely hyperbolic, is still not acceptable. Leave room for polite disagreement or it is you who is not discussing in good faith.

 

[Stalker Comic]

I see you have gone down from 9 to 7 castings, and have gone up from lvl 11 to lvl 17... but still don't see how you are getting 7 Conjure Volley.

7 castings with Level 17 Bard and 9 castings in level 20.
This is simple, use spell slots above the level 5 with the Bard for Conjure Volley.

 

[Stalker Comic]

Ranger can use Volley just fine at level 11, Swift Quiver is nice, but has no interaction with Volley.

RLY? The interaction is ending the arrows from the quiver, my friend.
With Swift Quiver can fire up 16 arrows per round using Ranger's Volley, not worrying about quantity.

It was clear that you have never played this edition with Ranger.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

See, I was responding purely to complaints about numerical inferiority, which seems to be what everyone seems to get hung up on. I demonstrated through clear math and examples that there are few offensive deficiencies, and a few defensive deficiencies, but none of them major. You are free to respond with your own examples, but simply saying I'm naive for believing this class May in fact be good does nothing to further the conversation.

Your math seems a bit off in the thread. You have the beasts damage as 2d4+6 at 3rd level. Unless I'm missing something, its 2d4+4 (the wolf's base damage, plus proficiency bonus). You also ignore hunter's mark, which the beast can't benefit from, and colossus slayer. Feats are also not taken into account - with sharpshooter its really hard to justify ever giving up a shot to have the wolf bite.

The wording seems a bit unclear if you can sac your main hand with 2 weapon fighting, have the wolf bite, and use your bonus action to attack with your offhand. If not, the damage falls further behind just dual wielding with the appropriate feat and style.

That's the real problem with your analysis. it ignores the opportunity cost. Its not like hunter's mark + colossus slayer + dual wielding is some crazy system mastery cheese. Assuming +2 weapons like you do in the thread, the ranger could be doing 3 attacks with rapiers for d8+7+d6+d8 a pop assuming a wounded target. That's significantly more than your damage output suggested for the beastmaster.

Playing on a grid the beast gets a bit better, however since you only are subject to opportunity attacks when you leave the threat radius (doughnut of doom!) vs the square, there's less chance of the beast getting an opportunity attack). Its not useless, its just a lot to trade for marginal utility over just buying some dogs.

 

[Stalker Comic]

Swift Quiver

You transmute your quiver so it produces an endless supply of nonmagical ammunition, which seems to leap into your hand when you reach for it. On each of your turns until the spell ends, you can use a bonus action to make two attacks with a weapon that uses ammunition from the quiver. Each time you make such a ranged attack, your quiver magically replaces the piece of ammunition you used with a similar piece of nonmagical ammunition. Any pieces o f ammunition created by this spell disintegrate when the spell ends. If the quiver leaves your possession, the spell ends.




Focused Fire = unlimited ammunition for 4 shots per round in one enemy
Volley = unlimited ammunition for any number enemies in 10 feet radius + 2 shots bonus per round

 

[Coredump]

7 castings with Level 17 Bard and 9 castings in level 20.
This is simple, use spell slots above the level 5 with the Bard for Conjure Volley.

First, it is *6* at level 17.

Second, I have noticed that you tend to bounce around levels, that way you make whatever claims you want without being bothered by anything resembling a legitimate comparison. Convenient for you.... but just makes it obvious you don't have much of an argument to stand behind.

 

[Stalker Comic]

First, it is *6* at level 17.

Second, I have noticed that you tend to bounce around levels, that way you make whatever claims you want without being bothered by anything resembling a legitimate comparison. Convenient for you.... but just makes it obvious you don't have much of an argument to stand behind.

It was you who had not seen the synergy of Volley + Swift Quiver.

And yes, they are 6 spells against 1 spell of Ranger (sorry).