D&D 5E The Turn Undead conundrum

[Skyscraper]

I'm a long-time D&D player, and always Turn Undead was a power that was pretty much never used: do you wish for the undead to flee, knowing that they'll likely be back (with a vengeance, if they're sentient)? Or do you wish to finish them off and be rid of them? Almost always, the latter for us.

4E has an elegant solution IMO, where Turn Undead would damage undead creatures AND push the creatures away (a few squares only, but this has its importance in the tactical game that 4E is, while maintaining the flavor to some extent).

5E brought back the concept of the undead fleeing, for 1 minute, likely enough to get lost. In this weekend's game, the cleric was a cleric of light, so he had the choice of Turning undead, or using Channel Divinity to use another power instead, namely Radiance of Dawn that deals 2d10 + cleric level damage to all enemies in a 30-foot radius. The latter appears like a much better option in most circumstances against undead.

Really, as a player, when my PC fights creatures, I try hard to avoid some creatures from fleeing the battle scene. But, Turn Undead not only allows creatures to flee, it forces them to flee, and one of our allies needs to use an action to do so! This, really, appears counter-productive to me.

I understand that in the situation where your party is swarmed by undead, Turn Undead is probably a good way out. But, would DMs then need to design encounters normally, except where undead are concerned: you then need to include, say, 50% more creatures to compensate the undead that will flee? Are encounters including non-undead monsters to be designed one way, and those including undead monsters, another?

I understand also that clerics get other uses for their Channel Divinity resource, such as Radiance of Dawn. The point is not whether Channel Divinity is useful, it's whether Turn Undead is useful.

Don't you think that a power that forces the enemies to flee the battle scene (possibly/probably to return later), is counter-productive to what most PCs/players try to achieve in D&D, namely to kill the monsters (and take their loot)? Do you or your party cleric use Turn Undead? If so, how, when? Does it turn out being productive and efficient?

 

[jayoungr]

My group uses Turn Undead a lot.

If it's indoors, the undead generally wind up cowering in a far corner, making them easy targets for ranged attacks or area of effect spells.

If it's outdoors, again, the ranged attackers generally pick them off as they're fleeing, so not many get away. If they're mindless and the PCs are staying in one place, I roll randomly for how many manage to find their way back. If the PCs move on, then the undead come back to find an empty battle site. Even when the PCs do end up fighting them again later, they'd typically rather have two small battles than one huge one.

As for "taking their loot," skeletons and zombies don't usually have anything worth taking anyway.

 

[Celebrim]

I don't have 5e experience, but I've been DMing 1e-3e for 30 years.

Leaving aside the fact that at higher levels turn incinerates many lesser foes, forcing an opponent to panic with no saving throw allowed, is in my experience a win button against all corporeal undead. It's then usually a trivial task to chase down and slay the cowering undead in a corner, or to pick apart the undead group in two smaller isolated groups. Whether it's any good versus incorporeal undead depends on how you treat the ethereal plane. By RAW, incorporeal undead can always easily flee as the ethereal plane has no interaction with the physical.

(Side rant. Ghosts, for example, by RAW don't see themselves as inhabiting a particular world with tangible features, but an entirely ghostly world letting them inhabit rocks quite freely and without discomfort. Thus, by RAW the ethereal plane is not only intangible to those on the material plane, but intangible to its ethereal inhabitants as well, which makes no sense given that it is supposed to be made of the same substance that they are.)

My problem with turn undead in 1e/2e/3e is that it's binary nature means that it either renders and encounter trivial, or else it is useless. The problem isn't that it isn't good, but that it tends to be anticlimactic. I don't have a problem with the turning not being useful. It's that when its useful it wins the encounter all on its own, and when it isn't useful it's a wasted action. In the long run, as the HD of undead increases exponentially, it becomes a non-factor. But it's so freaking powerful that it dominates design of undead and basically forces you to shut it down at some point beyond occasionally doing something impressive but largely unnecessary to a horde of undead mooks.

Doing something like your 'Radiance of Dawn' power is going to be useful only in those cases when the undead's effective HD is such to preclude turning. In general, imposing a panic/cower condition on something is far more powerful than a relatively trivial amount of direct damage.

I've been weighing in my mind what to do about this, but for this campaign at least made no changes in the turning rules.

 

[evilbob]

Years ago I was a big proponent of "make sure none get away!" Now I've realized that when an enemy "leaves," it's 99% the same as killing them. Unless you / your DM wants to make a point about enemies coming back to attack again (or they're some kind of named / reoccurring villain or whatever), there is really no good dramatic reason for them to do so. All you're really doing is wasting player time with something that isn't surprising or interesting. Same line of reasoning that many enemies will flee when they're suddenly outnumbered and many of their comrades are dead - because in reality, the last few rounds of mopping up aren't really dramatic or interesting from a story-telling point of view. And when your game time is precious, skipping anything that isn't the meat is paramount.

So another way to look at this is: turn undead is awesome, because you just defeated all those monsters. And you are winning much faster than killing them with damage. Just because something doesn't fall down with your sword in its head doesn't mean it isn't defeated. From this perspective, the limits on turn undead make sense. And while it's a cool power, it's still pretty reasonable and restricted (so limited in application).

But if it still bothers you, you can always do what I used to do because it bothered me: houserule that anything turned is destroyed completely. It's virtually the same; you're just changing the flavor to speed up the game in a reasonable way. (And now you can pick up the worthless bow that skeleton was carrying, yay!)

 

[Tony Vargas]

I'm a long-time D&D player, and always Turn Undead was a power that was pretty much never used: do you wish for the undead to flee, knowing that they'll likely be back (with a vengeance, if they're sentient)? Or do you wish to finish them off and be rid of them? Almost always, the latter for us.

4E has an elegant solution IMO, where Turn Undead would damage undead creatures AND push the creatures away (a few squares only, but this has its importance in the tactical game that 4E is, while maintaining the flavor to some extent).

To be fair, late 3.5 had a similar, optional, version of Turn Undead that did damage.

5E brought back the concept of the undead fleeing, for 1 minute, likely enough to get lost. Really, as a player, when my PC fights creatures, I try hard to avoid some creatures from fleeing the battle scene. But, Turn Undead not only allows creatures to flee, it forces them to flee, and one of our allies needs to use an action to do so! This, really, appears counter-productive to me.

5e, like 4e, has a slightly different combat dynamic. In 5e, while most tactics are unimportant, numbers - as in being outnumbered - are very telling (due mainly to bounded accuracy). If you can turn /part/ of an encounter for 1 minute, that'll make a huge difference. Divide and conquer. If you turn the whole encounter, ironically, it's pretty nearly a waste.

I understand that in the situation where your party is swarmed by undead, Turn Undead is probably a good way out.

In 5e, if you don't outnumber the monsters, you're prettymuch being 'swarmed.' You're fighting a much harder battle for no additional exp. You really want to fight lone monsters as much as you possibly can.

But, would DMs then need to design encounters normally, except where undead are concerned: you then need to include, say, 50% more creatures to compensate the undead that will flee? Are encounters including non-undead monsters to be designed one way, and those including undead monsters, another?

That was how I remember doing it (and seeing it done in modules) in the olden days, yes. The Cleric isn't quite so hard-coded into 5e, though (there are, like, at least 4 other classes with non-trivial healing), so just assuming undead encounters need to be ratcheted up doesn't make sense. For that matter, 5e encounter guidelines aren't so fine-tuned that adjusting them is that worthwhile, anyway. You may have a moderate encounter and think about adjusting it - but it may already turn out to be easy or hard based on one side unexpectedly getting surprise, or rolling hot on the first turn, or whatever. I'd say, generally leave encounters as they are: if a hard encounter becomes easy because a party member has the right spell or special ability or magic item, it's just that PC's time to shine.

 

[Skyscraper]

Thanks for all the relevant replies.

I admit that the situation is more subtle than I presented it.

However, I'd like to mention that, contrary to what is mentioned in some posts above, turn undead is not an automatic success in 5E. It requires a successful Will save to avoid the effect. So it's likely that, say, a third of the undead will remain to fight, while the rest will flee. This, in turn, is likely to prevent the group from simply picking off the fleeing undead, since they'll need to take care of those that remain.

As for the undead cowering in a corner, my interpretation of the is that they would not do so, unless the doorway is within 30 feet of the cleric and the undead consequently cannot get to it. Otherwise, they'll leave the room. (see the rules reference below) Leaving the room would effectively allow them to "move as far from the cleric as it can". The precision of them not being able to move within 30 feet of the cleric suggests that, otherwise, they are allowed to move closer to him to "move as far away as they can". That's my interpretation.

As for the undead possibly never being seen again, I guess it depends on the setting and area. In a dungeon, unless you're in a huge place, I'd be curious as a player why the undead that fled have not returned or were never seen again. Perhaps I'm used to relatively small locales - I've not played in Temple of Elemental Evil types of dungeons in quite some time.

What I can see happening, is that you face say 12 undead, you turn 8, you easily slay 4, and then you fall upon the other 8 with more critters. That's what I want to avoid as a player. I'd rather face the 12 right away to do away with the uncertainty.

However, I get that if you manage to have one encounter with 4 and then one encounter with 8, it'll be easier. Good point.

Also, I accept the suggestion that the undead could simply never return, the turning in fact resulting in eliminating as many undead.

I'll add that, as a DM, including undead in a campaign is a dilemna. If the undead are weak, then it changes little that the undead encounters becomes meaningless. However, if the undear represent important NPCs or monsters, then the Turn Undead becomes a heads-or-tails win button against those unique creatures.

So then, the question is: why include undead at all?

And, is there a way to make Turn Undead a meaningful power that however doesn't have this kind of result on the battle scene?

(Side note: the "take their loot" in parentheses was an attempt at humor, taken from the now popular expression. You can disregard it as it has nothing to do with the topic.)

PHB reference: C h a n n e l D i v i n i t y : T u r n U n d e a d

Spoiler

As an action, you present your holy symbol and speak a
prayer censuring the undead. Each undead that can see
or hear you within 30 feet o f you must make a W isdom
saving throw. If the creature fails its saving throw, it is
turned for 1 minute or until it takes any damage.
A turned creature must spend its turns trying to move
as far away from you as it can, and it can’t willingly
move to a space within 30 feet o f you. It also can’t take
reactions. For its action, it can use only the Dash action
or try to escape from an effect that prevents it from
moving. If there’s nowhere to move, the creature can use
the Dodge action.

 

[Nemio]

Ah, I remember playing Baldur's Gate II as my first RPG and wondering why one of my characters didn't turn into a skeleton when I used the "Turn Undead" skill

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

What I can see happening, is that you face say 12 undead, you turn 8, you easily slay 4, and then you fall upon the other 8 with more critters. That's what I want to avoid as a player. I'd rather face the 12 right away to do away with the uncertainty.

As a player, what I'd really like is for the 8 that ran away to fight it out with the other critters (e.g. Carrion Crawlers). And there's no reason they wouldn't; they hate all life.

As long as I still get XP for the Carrion Crawlers.

 

[evilbob]

As for the undead possibly never being seen again, I guess it depends on the setting and area. In a dungeon, unless you're in a huge place, I'd be curious as a player why the undead that fled have not returned or were never seen again.

I think you've pretty much solved your problem, but just to reiterate, in my opinion the answer to the above is: because it's not particularly interesting. I know logically it doesn't make much sense, but dramatically it does. And D&D has become more about good stories than good logic for me over the years. YMMV.

Edit:

As a player, what I'd really like is for the 8 that ran away to fight it out with the other critters

This is another good answer if you're worried about the logic side of things. "They ran off and got stomped by those other monsters."

 

[KarinsDad]

The player of our PC cleric thought similar to the OP. Because of this thinking, a group of undead were fighting the PCs and my wizard PC died. Personally, my philosophy is to turn undead when possible, especially threatening ones, clean up those not turned with fewer resources, and then worry later on about the ones that ran away.