D&D 5E Party optimisation vs Character optimisation

Hardly. It's not like D&D invented the genre, then used Wish to go back in time and inspire REH. It's just easier than typing "high fantasy and swords & sorcery and related sub-genres."
Oh! one of /those/ Niven stories. Got it now. Yeah, D&D does fail to model Niven's 'mana' vision of magic pretty thoroughly (popular old school 'mana point' systems notwithstanding). But it has no problem creating functionally (will let you gank the guy with the magic sword) similar anti-magic shells or Mordenkeinen's Disjunction (a good deal less inconvenient, too). No problem delivering very high-damage astrologically-themed effects, including meteor swarm and comet fall.

Well, first of all, AD&D did do a lot to try to balance classes. It just failed. The attempts, however, were manifold. Wizards, in particular, started out extremely fragile, banned from using mundane armor and all but a few weapons, and with only a single spell (and if it wasn't Sleep, too bad). The idea was that your wizard dying at first level would make up for him being overpowered at 9th level, and campaign-wrecking not long after. I don't think I have to point out the issue with that kind of balance. Casting was also made very difficult - spells took a long time to cast, could be interrupted with attacks, and were both spoiled and memory of them lost if you took even a point of damage or failed a saving throw. On the other side of it, fighters started out durable in basic combat and eventually got pretty awesome saves, and EGG weighted random magic charts heavily in favor of items useable by fighters, so they'd have some more options at higher level.

Every subsequent edition has eased restrictions on casters, and most have not proportionately decreased the number or power of their spells to compensate.

5e wizards, for instance, prepare their spells separately from their slots, and expend the slots to cast them without losing preparation, combining the strategic flexibility of traditional Vancian casters with the tactical flexibility of the 3.5 sorcerer's spontaneous casting. Spells cannot be interrupted, do not provoke OAs, and do not even suffer disadvantage like a ranged attack if they force a save, instead. Casters can prettymuch stand in the middle of melee and blaze away. They have fewer spell slots, but the save DC of all their spells is based on proficiency instead of spell level, so they actually have more spells that have a good chance of working for a baseline build. In addition, they have some spells that can be cast without even consuming slots, and at-will cantrips, as well. So the 'run out of slots' balancing factor, in spite of technically having fewer slots, is actually less of a limitation to them.

5e hasn't left most spells exactly the same, but reigned them in some to compensate for easing up so much on how limited casters are. Some of 'em.

While I don't deny the game's combat focus, DPR machine <> agency. You'd at least want some tactical depth to claim that. At very least.

I don't know where you get either of those impressions. 5e fighter do a lot of damage by making multiple attacks with a weapon using a fighting style they picked at first level. You can, as with any class, tack a couple of proficiencies and a perk on it with a Background - and the fact that's actually kind of a big step forward for fighter as far as its non-combat abilities go is a pretty sad comment on how little has ever been done to address that complaint. That's about it.


I think it's helpful to see the trend. The fighter, in 0E & 1e, really defined the tank role. It's job was to stand in a doorway or 10' wide corridor and hit things and take damage so it would die before more valuable characters. Not the greatest role ever, but useful. As long as you were in a dungeon. Later in 1e and in 2e, it changed what it did best and became a TWFing weapon-specialist (or archer) that just did nothing but dish out broken amounts of damage. Technically it still took up space at the front of the party, but things died so fast it hardly mattered. And of course, like everyone else, it could choose a kit. Not that fighter kits were great or anything.

Unfortunately, that is not a big step forward in any other sense. Did the 3.x fighter build on it. No. It took off in a different direction, backing off a little on damage potential, but becoming a remarkably customizable class. Not too versatile once you'd customized him, but temptingly ideal for all sorts of 'concept' martial builds. It was also completely overshadowed by casters by the time you hit double-digit levels, completely dependent on magic items for relevance, and, often, that wonderful concept build wouldn't 'mature' until 6th or 8th level - a narrow window of 'fun' but better than nothing, which is what the fighter was used to. And, did the 4e fighter build on that progress? No, it was backed up to being an early-1e tank and just made better at it, then given a little tactical agency in the form of AEDU martial maneuvers called 'exploits.'

And, did the 5e fighter build on /any/ of that? Nope, it just retraced it's steps back to 2e, and became all about high damage from multiple attacks, plus a Kit. I mean Background.

Edit: Ok, actually that last bit was unfair. Backgrounds are significantly better than 2e kits. Well, 2e fighter and thief kits, unless I've forgotten something good. And the 5e fighter does have vestiges of the 3.x fighter's versatility in fighting styles and archetypes, and a vestige of the 4e fighter's tank role support in one of those fighting styles and an optional feat. And everyone got HD, of course. And, of course, the Battlemaster got a really microscopic vestige of AEDU - just without the A, D, or U - in the form of 'maneuvers.'

There. That's fair.

Only 3E pumped up spell casters. They were nerfed from 1E to 2E (spells capped, magic resistance changed) and BECMI had weaker wizards than AD&D. Druids, Paladins and Ranegr were also nerfed from 1E although all classes except the Thief were nerfed.

The big screw up was changing the way some spells worked in AD&D and letting wizards advance at the same rate and nerfing the marital classes relative to AD&D. Haste and Wish could kill you and in effect had a maximum amount of times they could be used before they did kill you via aging.

Wizards also did not have an easy time of it in terms of getting spells. Oh they also buffed and added buff spells to the game. Sod all AD&D spells gave a higher bonus than +1 to hit and saves- bbless, prayer and aid for example. There was no divine power in 2E.
 

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Wizards also did not have an easy time of it in terms of getting spells. Oh they also buffed and added buff spells to the game. Sod all AD&D spells gave a higher bonus than +1 to hit and saves- bbless, prayer and aid for example. There was no divine power in 2E.

One of my big regrets about 5E is that wizards automatically get spells on level-up. It ruins the flavor of wizards as seekers of knowledge a la Jack Vance, wheeling and dealing and swapping spells with each other and pursuing rumors of hidden caches of magical knowledge. In 5E, any spells you hunger for are guaranteed to be only second- or third-best, else you'd already have them. This is especially regrettable for the Wish spell.

There are ways you could change this but no low-impact ways, since automatic spell acquisition is baked into all the classes in 5E. For now I just accept it, but if I wanted to nerf casters that's exactly where I'd start. Make finding a spellbook as big or bigger a deal than finding a magical weapon.
 

Anomander Rake is awesome. I would love to be able to make that character. No way you could make it in a regular D&D campaign and hope to have any semblance of balance. Anomander Rake could fight gods in magical or physical battle. Many wizards in the sword and sorcery genre are also very capable warriors. Hard to capture in D&D.

Agree. I can never actually tell how good anyone is in Malazan world because Steven Erikson never explains anything and isn't big on consistency--but it's clear that Rake is more powerful than Quick Ben, who is more powerful than Bauchelain and Korbal Broach, and Bauchelain and Korbal Broach would be high-level necromancers in D&D judging by their survival in Capustan so Rake is a couple orders of magnitude beyond that. Similarly, Mok is a couple orders of magnitude beyond any D&D fighter considering that the entire Seguleh "punitive expedition" against the Pannion Domin consisted entirely of him and his two subordinates. (I love that storyline!) To be fair, Lady Envy ended up doing much of the work--Mok might have failed his mission if he hadn't met up with her and Tool, et al.--but that's still some real chutzpah!

D&D doesn't scale up beyond 20th level so it's hard to capture any of that, but I suppose if there were 100th or 500th level PCs, Anomander Rake might fit right in there somewhere. (I mean, he's got somewhere between 200,000 and 600,000 years of XP to draw on! Erikson's timelines are inconsistent but he's at least 200,000[1].)

[1] One of my gripes with Erikson is that Rake doesn't actually feel 200,000 years old to me in the way that, say, Sethra Lavode does.
 

Agree. I can never actually tell how good anyone is in Malazan world because Steven Erikson never explains anything and isn't big on consistency--but it's clear that Rake is more powerful than Quick Ben, who is more powerful than Bauchelain and Korbal Broach, and Bauchelain and Korbal Broach would be high-level necromancers in D&D judging by their survival in Capustan so Rake is a couple orders of magnitude beyond that. Similarly, Mok is a couple orders of magnitude beyond any D&D fighter considering that the entire Seguleh "punitive expedition" against the Pannion Domin consisted entirely of him and his two subordinates. (I love that storyline!) To be fair, Lady Envy ended up doing much of the work--Mok might have failed his mission if he hadn't met up with her and Tool, et al.--but that's still some real chutzpah!

D&D doesn't scale up beyond 20th level so it's hard to capture any of that, but I suppose if there were 100th or 500th level PCs, Anomander Rake might fit right in there somewhere. (I mean, he's got somewhere between 200,000 and 600,000 years of XP to draw on! Erikson's timelines are inconsistent but he's at least 200,000[1].)

[1] One of my gripes with Erikson is that Rake doesn't actually feel 200,000 years old to me in the way that, say, Sethra Lavode does.
What book involved the segulah?
 


[MENTION=6786202]DaveDash[/MENTION]: Thanks for this thread; it's really nice to hear more about higher-level play and things to watch out for re: character builds, party builds, etc. I have a specific question for you (or anyone with lots of higher-level party play experience) and that is: how does a ranger stack up? People have said for a while that rangers were one of the weaker classes but then at low levels they tend to do very well due to sheer damage output. But I'm curious how they stack up at higher levels when other classes do more damage and their "exploration" skills are made nearly useless by the spells of other classes. I'm just wondering: do rangers really stack up or are they weak at higher levels as others have postulated?

A non-beast master ranger would be fine with the Sharpshooter feat. I haven't seen one in play though.

The thing is with 5e is that even a beast master Ranger will contribute, it's not like 3.5 where there is a huge gap between non-optimised and optimised. The biggest "problem" I've seen is basically Sharpshooter + Crossbow expert, because they can make melee builds feel a bit redundant.

Now having said all that I've seen some very solid Ranger/Rogue DPR builds.
 

A non-beast master ranger would be fine with the Sharpshooter feat. I haven't seen one in play though.

The thing is with 5e is that even a beast master Ranger will contribute, it's not like 3.5 where there is a huge gap between non-optimised and optimised. The biggest "problem" I've seen is basically Sharpshooter + Crossbow expert, because they can make melee builds feel a bit redundant.

Now having said all that I've seen some very solid Ranger/Rogue DPR builds.

The hunter ranger is good IMHO, and th game is not all about the damage.
 


Anomander Rake is awesome. I would love to be able to make that character. No way you could make it in a regular D&D campaign and hope to have any semblance of balance. Anomander Rake could fight gods in magical or physical battle. Many wizards in the sword and sorcery genre are also very capable warriors. Hard to capture in D&D.
Have everybody multiclass equal split, then go Fighter N/Wizard N.

Bounded accuracy should mean your skills remain relevant to a much higher degree than in any previous edition.
 

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