Venting on Sorcerer build

[SkidAce]

In my view, sorcerers "channel power from within themselves" (in fact they are called channelers).

So there are fire channelers, storm channelers, even "mystic" divine healing channelers.

Raw magic and power through force of will (charisma).

Some times you touch that inner source of power and it gets out of control (Firestarteer, Carrie).

That sums it up.

 

[Wednesday Boy]

Well, until the game I was in died, I had a simple system to embrace randomness. I would roll not only to see which spells would I learn or retrain, but also to randomly decide if a spell would be cast at any time I was taking an action, which spell would it be, and even when to use metamagics with it. It is fun and unpredictable.

Woof! I like randomness but that's too rich for my blood!

Or to use your other simile, "some guy" spends 12 yrs learning to become a "doctor", then goes on Pee Wee's Adventure and suddenly becomes a world class neurosurgeon.

There's a lotta things about sorcerers you don't know anything about, Rejuvenator. Things you wouldn't understand. Things you couldn't understand. Things you shouldn't understand.

(And if sorcerers are truly natural casters, they should need only a fraction of the time a wizard takes to learn a cantrip).

It doesn't explain dragon sorcerers but you could say a reason why wild surges don't happen on cantrips is because wild magic sorcerers spend an exorbitant time learning and training them.

I've since created a house rule that the Wild Surge "counter" goes up every time the player casts a spell. Eventually, he will provoke a wild surge... hopefully.

That's interesting. If the player doesn't want to cause wild surges, was there some other aspect that drew them to the subclass?

 

[Rejuvenator]

There's a lotta things about sorcerers you don't know anything about, Rejuvenator. Things you wouldn't understand. Things you couldn't understand. Things you shouldn't understand.

That's a nicely poetic sentiment, but it doesn't ring true to me. At least not in D&D, when designers presume to ascribe backgrounds and motivations to the likes of Demogorgon and other eldritch entitities. Sorcerer powers are small fry in comparison, and could/should be somewhat understood, especially if the player is inhabiting the PC as a relatable character.

 

[Wednesday Boy]

That's a nicely poetic sentiment, but it doesn't ring true to me. At least not in D&D, when designers presume to ascribe backgrounds and motivations to the likes of Demogorgon and other eldritch entitities. Sorcerer powers are small fry in comparison, and could/should be somewhat understood, especially if the player is inhabiting the PC as a relatable character.

Oops! I wasn't trying to critique you. Just being goofy because of your example!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKLizztikRk

 

[Mercule]

The wizard spends time learning and studying magic and does not focus on improving his physical skills much. Thus, he has lower hit points and fewer weapon proficiencies.

The warlock bargains for magic that is used to augment other adventuring skills. Thus, moderate hit points and weapons. Even if a warlock uses a lot of magic, it's in conjunction with other skills.

A sorcerer treats magic as an innate talent. The brute may never learn how to dodge a blow. The acrobat may be strong enough to use a greataxe, but there's no point. A sorcerer has enough magic "on tap" that it seems silly to figure out how to use a sword, rather than just use Shocking Grasp. If the sorcerer sees enough benefit to learn more weapons or to toughen up, there are feats and/or multi-classing options for both.


Also, the idea that sorcerers are inherently frail is simply false. My daughter's dragonblooded sorcerer with the Tough feat has more hit points than the fighter and opens the gap more, every level. She still doesn't use a physical weapon, though, because there's no point. She can wade into melee quite well, thank you very much, and has acted as meat shield on more than one occasion. She's even more effective at range, giving the spell-sniping evoker heartburn. She's tough enough to survive the couple of ambushes the party has seen, and never has to worry about being caught without her weapons.

 

[MoonSong]

The wizard spends time learning and studying magic and does not focus on improving his physical skills much. Thus, he has lower hit points and fewer weapon proficiencies.

The warlock bargains for magic that is used to augment other adventuring skills. Thus, moderate hit points and weapons. Even if a warlock uses a lot of magic, it's in conjunction with other skills.

A sorcerer treats magic as an innate talent. The brute may never learn how to dodge a blow. The acrobat may be strong enough to use a greataxe, but there's no point. A sorcerer has enough magic "on tap" that it seems silly to figure out how to use a sword, rather than just use Shocking Grasp. If the sorcerer sees enough benefit to learn more weapons or to toughen up, there are feats and/or multi-classing options for both.


Also, the idea that sorcerers are inherently frail is simply false. My daughter's dragonblooded sorcerer with the Tough feat has more hit points than the fighter and opens the gap more, every level. She still doesn't use a physical weapon, though, because there's no point. She can wade into melee quite well, thank you very much, and has acted as meat shield on more than one occasion. She's even more effective at range, giving the spell-sniping evoker heartburn. She's tough enough to survive the couple of ambushes the party has seen, and never has to worry about being caught without her weapons.

But that is wizard logic, imagine you were born with an extra pair of arms, that only you can see. Everybody else is amazed by the things you do with them, but for you there's no difference because it is always been like that. Others may wonder but for you it is just like any other limb you have. There 'd be no difference you would lack even the mindframe to actively disdain mundane means because for you magic is also mundane.

 

[Mercule]

But that is wizard logic, imagine you were born with an extra pair of arms, that only you can see. Everybody else is amazed by the things you do with them, but for you there's no difference because it is always been like that. Others may wonder but for you it is just like any other limb you have. There 'd be no difference you would lack even the mindframe to actively disdain mundane means because for you magic is also mundane.

I'm not sure I entirely follow what you're saying, but I'll give it a shot....

To continue the analogy, those two extra arms are stronger than your regular arms, but ill-suited (due to placement, lack of thumbs, actually being tentacles, something) to wielding weapons. They're great for punching, but you need to adapt any fight style to use them well. Assuming you need to know how to fight (adventurer), you have the option of learning conventional styles (wizard) that put you on even ground as any average Joe. Or, you can play to your strengths and figure out how to use your super-cool tentacles. If you split your learning, you won't be as good with either, but you certainly could. Focusing on your tentacles is single-classing in sorcerer. Focusing on traditional style is wizard (or fighter, even). Multi-classing is pretty self-explanitory.

Or, to use a more personal example, I'm a pretty big guy (bench around 250#, 300# when I was younger) and, since that's my "natural" physique, it doesn't appreciably slow me down. I've picked up some martial arts training, over the years. While I'm not going to jump into a pro MMA ring, I'm confident in my ability to stand up to a couple of "average" guys, should they want to go for it. I also have my concealed carry permit and don't suck with a handgun. I don't generally carry, though, and rarely go to the range. Why? In 99% of real-world situations, including someone breaking into my house, the handgun is going to be less effective for me than my fists. You can disagree with my opinion and/or assessment of my abilities, if you want. The fact is that a sorcerer is much more likely to think the same way, though. Why would I rely on an external mechanism that's inferior to what I know? I've got a good friend who's a natural marksman who would play to the opposite end, though. Since we're using a metaphoric argument, the same basic train of logic applies.

 

[famousringo]

The wizard spends time learning and studying magic and does not focus on improving his physical skills much. Thus, he has lower hit points and fewer weapon proficiencies.

The warlock bargains for magic that is used to augment other adventuring skills. Thus, moderate hit points and weapons. Even if a warlock uses a lot of magic, it's in conjunction with other skills.

A sorcerer treats magic as an innate talent. The brute may never learn how to dodge a blow. The acrobat may be strong enough to use a greataxe, but there's no point. A sorcerer has enough magic "on tap" that it seems silly to figure out how to use a sword, rather than just use Shocking Grasp. If the sorcerer sees enough benefit to learn more weapons or to toughen up, there are feats and/or multi-classing options for both.


Also, the idea that sorcerers are inherently frail is simply false. My daughter's dragonblooded sorcerer with the Tough feat has more hit points than the fighter and opens the gap more, every level. She still doesn't use a physical weapon, though, because there's no point. She can wade into melee quite well, thank you very much, and has acted as meat shield on more than one occasion. She's even more effective at range, giving the spell-sniping evoker heartburn. She's tough enough to survive the couple of ambushes the party has seen, and never has to worry about being caught without her weapons.

Well, since you're using a particular build to make a point, I won't be shy about using my character to make a counterpoint.

My level 1 halfling sorcerer does more damage with daggers and sling than he can do with any cantrip. He's more likely to hit and has a higher expected damage than with Shocking Grasp or Firebolt. The gap will narrow at 5th level when cantrips power up and his charisma catches up with his dex, but he's wild, so he'll never be able to add cha to his spell damage. Cantrips will only decisively pull ahead at level 11, but even then I wonder if buffs and magic items won't push the argument back in weapons' favour.

So does it make sense for my sorcerer to totally neglect his weapon skills when, without even trying, he's going to spend the first half of his career better at stabbing or shooting enemies to death than zapping them?

 

[MoonSong]

I'm not sure I entirely follow what you're saying, but I'll give it a shot....

To continue the analogy, those two extra arms are stronger than your regular arms, but ill-suited (due to placement, lack of thumbs, actually being tentacles, something) to wielding weapons. They're great for punching, but you need to adapt any fight style to use them well. Assuming you need to know how to fight (adventurer), you have the option of learning conventional styles (wizard) that put you on even ground as any average Joe. Or, you can play to your strengths and figure out how to use your super-cool tentacles. If you split your learning, you won't be as good with either, but you certainly could. Focusing on your tentacles is single-classing in sorcerer. Focusing on traditional style is wizard (or fighter, even). Multi-classing is pretty self-explanitory.

Or, to use a more personal example, I'm a pretty big guy (bench around 250#, 300# when I was younger) and, since that's my "natural" physique, it doesn't appreciably slow me down. I've picked up some martial arts training, over the years. While I'm not going to jump into a pro MMA ring, I'm confident in my ability to stand up to a couple of "average" guys, should they want to go for it. I also have my concealed carry permit and don't suck with a handgun. I don't generally carry, though, and rarely go to the range. Why? In 99% of real-world situations, including someone breaking into my house, the handgun is going to be less effective for me than my fists. You can disagree with my opinion and/or assessment of my abilities, if you want. The fact is that a sorcerer is much more likely to think the same way, though. Why would I rely on an external mechanism that's inferior to what I know? I've got a good friend who's a natural marksman who would play to the opposite end, though. Since we're using a metaphoric argument, the same basic train of logic applies.

By wizard logic I refer to the idea that everybody always is so hyperrational and always optimizing for everything, and when applied to in-game that magic is always so superior and mundane is so inferior there is no point on going with the mundane. Imagine for the sake of it that ok, the extra arms are useless for weapons, but that you could use them for many other things you can't use your normal arms for, and that training them to kill kill and kill doesn't allow you to take advantage of the other things that can be useful for you (each combat spell is a wasted chance for something truly useful). Do you really need so hard to be an effectively killer with them if you could use them for greater speed -useful to flee but also for many other ends- instead? If on top training to use a mundane mean meant you could defend as well or nearly as well? If on top both options were equally you? Maybe a gun is the most efficient mean to defend yourself -I'm not big-, but should I ruin my fragile wrists and fingers -that I need for drawing and painting- learning to shoot one? If I needed that hard to learn to defend myself I would use instead my legs to run, jump, dodge and kick.

 

[Capn Charlie]

Adventurers are supposed to be special. In the hands of an adventurer, or their antagonists, proficiency with a longsword is not just the knowledge that you're supposed to put the pointy end in your enemies, but rather that you spent the years mastering the weapon to the point you can actually do so.

Fighters aren't just big dumb louts that spend all their time drinking and gambling and lazing about. They spent years and years, often from the age of children, learning how to use and maintain a wide variety of weapons. Training from dawn until after dark, until your fingers bleed, covered with bruises and with the occasional broken bone from training with practice weapons. That is their legacy, their backbreaking labor to become skilled in the art of war. What was this sorcerer doing with their childhood? Their young adulthood?

Every day spent trying to master their magic so as not to be consumed by it was one not spent running until they vomited while wearing heavy mail, learning how to wear it.

Every day spent attempting to master the creation of convincing illusions was one not spent mastering the bow by learning to lead targets and calculate for wind subconsciously.

Every day spent learning to use charms and smooth talk to get five apples for the price of three was one not spent in swordmanship practice learning to parry an attack and deliver a killing blow.

How did your sorcerer grow up, how did he spend his days? If he mastered the lance and the bow and trained in mail, and now uses these skills along with some magical talents, then he was probably a warrior class first. If he thinks that the spear is a fine way to deal with threats, then he learned it on the line, and in a thousand sparring matches, not sitting under a tree and making glowing lights dance.

Class based systems are hard. And horrible. And if there was a single good way to be rid of them, surely we would be. If you have to, to wrap your mind around it, use multiclassing to simulate your unique character origin and upbringing. A game I played had a good idea: imagine your first three levels as how you began your life, what you experienced, and where you are now.

Did you begin life as a the child of the wild frontiers, learning how to use woodcraft and force of arms to survive the rough wilderness, only to find you had a terrifying magical talent, and now you have decided to focus on nurturing it? Rng1/Sor2. Notice how you don't automagically gain Arcana? You weren't trained in that, you have the skillset you created and built in your life before.

Was your sorcerer a gifted magician from birth, using magic as naturally as your own two hands, and went on to learn to use arms and armors and fight, but has now chosen the life of an adventurer to further their skill with magic and explore the limits of their power. Sor1,Ftr1,Sor2

It goes on and on. If you want a "pure" sorcerer with the fancy capstone, and still want weapons and armor training, a variety of feats exist, this goes the same for other skills and abilities.