Yeah, I told them "you came within a whisker of TPK". It was a bit of a ballsup though because we were playing online and early on that session two of the four players had dropped out, telling the others to play their characters. It was one of the absent players whose dwarf PC died. Normally I don't like absent players' PCs to take part at all, and this was a good example why.
D&D 5E Any reason not to let PCs add Proficiency to all Saves?
- Thread starter S'mon
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Yeah, I told them "you came within a whisker of TPK". It was a bit of a ballsup though because we were playing online and early on that session two of the four players had dropped out, telling the others to play their characters. It was one of the absent players whose dwarf PC died. Normally I don't like absent players' PCs to take part at all, and this was a good example why.
Last session the 4 characters (3 PCs & 1 NPC) ran into a pack of ghouls in Dyson's Delve (9 of them in all). Even with good saves, a lot of the time half the 5th level party was paralysed and being critted by ghoul bites. The players thought they were close to TPK, although I think it wasn't nearly as close as the Thracia sleep trap.
Most monsters & NPCs use the listed saves in the MM. I do give a few special NPCs all good saves. For a Conanesque sword & sorcery game like this one I'm ok with martial characters being stronger in
direct combat, I'm giving the lone caster (Warlock) the ability to use scrolls from any caster class and I would
let him do rituals - although I didn't let him summon his Archfey patron at 3rd level the way he wanted.
I agree the low-level game is balanced as-is, long as the GM keeps DCs low and doesn't run Caverns off Thracia; I'm unconvinced high level 5e is balanced when PCs always fail most saves, but maybe I'm wrong. Would be good to see some accounts.
I can give you an account up to level 16 as to what you need to be concerned with.
1. The paladin: The paladin has an aura that gives Charisma bonus to saves. Combining the aura with proficiency in all saves might create a situation where players are making saves too easily. Prof. bonus + cha. paladin bonus + ability bonus can lead to a very high save.
2. Spells: bless provides +1d4 to all saves. This one spell is the most powerful group buff in the game. If you don't have a class that provides bless, then you don't have to worry about it as much. It's a haves versus have nots situation. That's how powerful bless is.
Aura of Power: This ability gives advantage on saves against magical effects and spells. Combine it with the other options, you're looking at making magical effects and spells trivial.
There are other spells that provide damage resistance against many common attacks.
3. Class Abilities:
Fighter: Fighter has an ability that allows him to reroll a save a few times.
Barbarian: Barbarian has an ability that gives him advantage on Dex. saves all the time. His rage ability causes half-damage against nearly everything if he takes Bear Resistance.
Wizard: Counterspell can often be used to counter dangerous spells. Dispel Magic can remove a lot of negative spell effects.
Cleric: Cleric has quite a few spells for removing effects.
Paladin: Can remove spells by touch. Immune to frightened. Can remove disease and other effects with Lay on Hands.
Monk: Immune to poison and disease. Can spend a ki point to reroll failed save.
4. Monster Abilities: Most monster abilities are short duration or round by round saves save for a few very powerful abilities. Not a lot of AoE powers other than dragon breath and occasional AoE lair effects or spells that do a little damage. DCs seem to average between 17 and 21 for higher level creatures in the CR 18 to 20 range.
Green dragon lair action that charms.
Lich touch.
Most spells by casters.
Even random round by round rolls often lead to a high enough roll to break free from effects quickly, especially when buffed.
A lot of this is left up to your design. You might need to design tougher monsters at higher level or their special abilities won't have much of an effect.
At low level saves seem harsh and they can be. At high level it's not nearly as bad with all the character capabilities for protecting themselves. Just some things to watch out for when tailoring your game as far as saves go.
Some questions:
1. Does your group fight in a highly organized manner with martials keeping casters clean of attackers as often as possible?
2. Does your group use scouting to set up ambushes? Stealth and Perception with rogue/bard is exceptionally good in this game.
3. Do you have much ranged firepower?
Thanks C; that's a very handy list. There's a 'paladin' NPC IMC but I don't give her the full range of
Paladin PC abilities; the main PCs are Barbarian Rogue Warlock, with occasional Fighter & 2nd
Barbarian. The Warlock player has some rules knowledge, the others have none.
I think if/when I use 5e tabletop with some more powergamey players and a more high-magic setting (thinking of running Rise of the Runelords in 5e next year) I'll need to stick to RAW to start with. I can always give Boons or something that give save bonuses later if it's an issue. The suggestion upthread of PC off-saves starting at +0 but progressing +1 per 5 levels might be the way to go, but if there was a Paladin in the group that might be overpowered.
1. No, they don't appreciate how much squishier the Warlock is than the martial characters since his nominal hp tally is similar. Warlock trying to hold the line vs ghoul horde didn't go very well.
2. I've seen a bit of scouting, but they usually proceed en bloc.
3. Not really, one of the occasional PCs (replacement for dead dwarf) is an Archer Fighter but he didn't
get to use his bow in the one session he's played. The Rogue uses Rapier & Dagger (thanks to Antillian Trader Background ability he can dual wield these), he occasionally throws a dagger. The Barbarians use greatswords & charge in. The Warlock mostly casts Poison Spray or shoots an x-bow for small amounts of damage.
His +7 Persuasion is generally a much bigger asset than his combat abilities; the Rogue has +8 Persuasion - my game has a lot of talky stuff so these are very effective.
Sounds like you'll be ok with proficiency on all saves. Sounds like it will help your group survive. This is an extremely lethal edition of D&D. Even at high level the game can be lethal depending on how you design encounters and how experienced your players are. There's no way in this game to become invincible like there was in 3E. With not much magic, there's no way to load up on magic to make monsters trivial. The game is almost always dangerous. CR 2 and 4 creatures in groups were still a danger to our level 14 and 15 PCs when combined with stronger monsters. It was very refreshing that it was so easy to challenge high level characters with common threats.
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