I don't like that the new sorcs are going from 15 to 24 known spells... instead of more spells (to make them more like a wiz) they should be getting access to more metamagic choices, ro make them more like sorcs. They would know few spells, but be able to cast them many different ways.
D&D 5E Sorcerer vs. Wizard: Anything You Can Do I Can Do Better?
- Thread starter I'm A Banana
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MoonSong
Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
Sorry but I don't buy it. More spells known are only fair, they let you dedicate to utility -which isn't a wizard-only thing IMO-. I don't know you, but if being a sorcerer was only being a blaster I would hate the class -and I happen to love it-. And besides, check the Life Domain Favored Soul, I'm sure all wizards go around healing people and raising the dead.
More metamagic options would be welcome, I was suprirsed we didn't see anything like energy admixture out of the box, but beyond that what else? Non-lethal spell? Dual spell(two in the same casting)? something to negate legendary resistance? I don't know
CapnZapp
Legend
When talking about "the three pillars" (combat, explore, social) something uniquely D&D gets lost:
The way classic mid- to high-level adventures assumes a wizard in the group and presents obstacles only (arcane) spells can easily overcome or moderate. Things like fly, teleport, gate. Gaseous Form, pass through stone and the like. Dispel magic. But also investigative divination spells. In some cases, even highly specific spells such as Cure Disease vs Umber Hulks or damage of certain elements vs things like Golems. I'm sure I've forgotten several ones.
Having a sorcerer instead severely hinders the group in this regard, since she does not have enough spells to be able to choose any "what if" spells - each and every spell needs to be useful all the time.
The only reason why you would sacrifice all that in 3E was to escape the horrors of spell memorization. 5E doesn't provide anything nearly as sweet a deal.
(As I said, in a larger group, with another arcane caster, things brighten considerably, assuming that other character is okay with the sorcerer hogging the damage spotlight)
Not sure what to call this pillar. But just because the DMG forgot about it doesn't mean it isn't there...
The way classic mid- to high-level adventures assumes a wizard in the group and presents obstacles only (arcane) spells can easily overcome or moderate. Things like fly, teleport, gate. Gaseous Form, pass through stone and the like. Dispel magic. But also investigative divination spells. In some cases, even highly specific spells such as Cure Disease vs Umber Hulks or damage of certain elements vs things like Golems. I'm sure I've forgotten several ones.
Having a sorcerer instead severely hinders the group in this regard, since she does not have enough spells to be able to choose any "what if" spells - each and every spell needs to be useful all the time.
The only reason why you would sacrifice all that in 3E was to escape the horrors of spell memorization. 5E doesn't provide anything nearly as sweet a deal.
(As I said, in a larger group, with another arcane caster, things brighten considerably, assuming that other character is okay with the sorcerer hogging the damage spotlight)
Not sure what to call this pillar. But just because the DMG forgot about it doesn't mean it isn't there...
The sorcerer gets many of those spells. A sorcerer can take the Charm spells and wreck your game. And at high levels, 3 of 4 sorcerer straight up can fly.
The difference between a wizard and sorcerer is a wizard has 2-3 offensive spells prepared per level whereas a sorcerer functions with 1 spell per level. You only need one 1st level Blasty spell, one 2nd level blasty spell, one 3rd, one 4th, etc. All the rest of your spells k own are open for charms and utility spells to metamagic.
"If you blow up a square hole, it's a circle. I'm good with circles. Who needs the square peg?"
Many of those spells aren't great this edition and are available to sorcerers. Additionally, wizards don't take "what if" spells because they only learn so many spells per level and a higher priority on spells to add that are more commonly useful. Most of those "what if" spells added are found and there's no significant difference between someone casting it from a found scroll like a wizard might have used or taking ritual caster for the same abilities.
There is no assumed or required class in the rules; that's a situation DM's create.
famousringo
First Post
Wizards still have more spells known, so they do have more leeway to cover edge cases, but mostly its their ritual magic, rivalled only by tomelocks, that lets them cover these "what if" scenarios. And if they really know they're going to need a certain edge spell, they can go out and get it, which is not an option for sorcerers. Sorcerers get pigeonholed into picking the best, and only the absolute best, spells they can get. The sorcerer's already pruned spell list might as well be cut in half, because many simply aren't good enough to even consider, while a wizard might chance upon them, copy them into the spellbook and choose to prepare them on a special occasion.
One of the things I like about the new sorcerer subclasses with domain spells is that pretty much every domain comes with some of these edge case spells, whether you want them or not. They'll feel like dead weight right up until that time they come in super handy.
But yeah, I agree with you. DMs shouldn't create a scenario where a particular spell or ability is absolutely necessary, even a really common one, like Fly. Perhaps make the party pay a price for an ability's absence, like a perilous climb, for example, but there needs to be another way to solve a given problem.
If there's a virtue to taking a sorcerer on your team over a wizard, it's that the sorcerer will let the skill monster rogues and bards do what they're good at just to free up known spells, rather than competing by taking Charm, Knock, Disguise Self, Spider Climb, Invisibility, etc.
Let's do an experiment.
Let's compare what spells a sorcerer and wizard has on them during an adventure. We'll ignore rituals as they take time and a DM shouldn't be forcing a party to have an obscure spell. Just what the casters have on them. 1st, 4th, 7th, and 10th level. No feats, 16 in the main stat, ignoring subclasses features. The Sorcerer attempts to know a spell of a damage type for every spell level known. The Wizard does the same for spell school.
1st level
The Sorcerer knows 4 cantrips and 2 spells. If the Sorcerer knows fire bolt and burning hands, that leaves 3 cantrips and 1 spell free.
The Wizard has 3 cantrips and 4 spells prepared. If the Wizard has fire bolt and burning hands, that leaves 2 cantrips and 3 spells free.
4th level
The Sorcerer knows 5 cantrips and 5 spells. If the Sorcerer knows fire bolt, burning hands, and scorching ray that leaves 4 cantrips and 2 spell free.
The Wizard has 4 cantrips and 8 spells prepared. If the Wizard has fire bolt and burning hands, and scorching ray that leaves 3 cantrips and 5 spells free.
7th level
The Sorcerer knows 5 cantrips and 8 spells. If the Sorcerer knows fire bolt, burning hands, scorching ray, fireball, and wall of fire that leaves 4 cantrips and 4 spell free.
The Wizard has 4 cantrips and 11 spells prepared. If the Wizard has fire bolt and burning hands, scorching ray, fireball, and wall of fire that leaves 3 cantrips and 7 spells free.
10th level
The Sorcerer knows 6 cantrips and 11 spells. If the Sorcerer knows fire bolt, burning hands, scorching ray, fireball, wall of fire, and immolation that leaves 5 cantrips and 6 spell free.
The Wizard has 5 cantrips and 15 spells prepared. If the Wizard has fire bolt and burning hands, scorching ray, fireball, wall of fire and and immolation that leaves 4 cantrips and 10 spells free.
So really it doesn't look so bad.
If a sorcerer follows a theme, he or she has just about a number of spell equal to half his level rounded up free to do whatever.
If a wizard follows a theme, he or she has a number of spell equal to his level rounded up free to do whatever.
If a wizard prepared every spell a sorcerer knows, the wizard only has about half his level more spells prepared. A sorcerer always has 1 more cantrip.
So it's really
Sorcerer casting + Font of magic + Metamagic vs Wizard casting Arcane Recovery.
Not a big hammer vs a tool box. A big hammer and a big pliers vs a full toolbox.
Let's compare what spells a sorcerer and wizard has on them during an adventure. We'll ignore rituals as they take time and a DM shouldn't be forcing a party to have an obscure spell. Just what the casters have on them. 1st, 4th, 7th, and 10th level. No feats, 16 in the main stat, ignoring subclasses features. The Sorcerer attempts to know a spell of a damage type for every spell level known. The Wizard does the same for spell school.
1st level
The Sorcerer knows 4 cantrips and 2 spells. If the Sorcerer knows fire bolt and burning hands, that leaves 3 cantrips and 1 spell free.
The Wizard has 3 cantrips and 4 spells prepared. If the Wizard has fire bolt and burning hands, that leaves 2 cantrips and 3 spells free.
4th level
The Sorcerer knows 5 cantrips and 5 spells. If the Sorcerer knows fire bolt, burning hands, and scorching ray that leaves 4 cantrips and 2 spell free.
The Wizard has 4 cantrips and 8 spells prepared. If the Wizard has fire bolt and burning hands, and scorching ray that leaves 3 cantrips and 5 spells free.
7th level
The Sorcerer knows 5 cantrips and 8 spells. If the Sorcerer knows fire bolt, burning hands, scorching ray, fireball, and wall of fire that leaves 4 cantrips and 4 spell free.
The Wizard has 4 cantrips and 11 spells prepared. If the Wizard has fire bolt and burning hands, scorching ray, fireball, and wall of fire that leaves 3 cantrips and 7 spells free.
10th level
The Sorcerer knows 6 cantrips and 11 spells. If the Sorcerer knows fire bolt, burning hands, scorching ray, fireball, wall of fire, and immolation that leaves 5 cantrips and 6 spell free.
The Wizard has 5 cantrips and 15 spells prepared. If the Wizard has fire bolt and burning hands, scorching ray, fireball, wall of fire and and immolation that leaves 4 cantrips and 10 spells free.
So really it doesn't look so bad.
If a sorcerer follows a theme, he or she has just about a number of spell equal to half his level rounded up free to do whatever.
If a wizard follows a theme, he or she has a number of spell equal to his level rounded up free to do whatever.
If a wizard prepared every spell a sorcerer knows, the wizard only has about half his level more spells prepared. A sorcerer always has 1 more cantrip.
So it's really
Sorcerer casting + Font of magic + Metamagic vs Wizard casting Arcane Recovery.
Not a big hammer vs a tool box. A big hammer and a big pliers vs a full toolbox.
aramis erak
Legend
I voted 3...
Their spell lists overlap a lot. They both are full casters.
The big difference is flexibility in how they cast vs flexibility in what they cast.
The sorcerer can silence a spell, or twin one, or any of the other metamagics. But he knows only a small subset of spells off the class list at all, and cannot pick up new ones except by level-up. He also doesn't need books to swap amongst that subset. They have a limited ability to recharge spells on the fly at best, 14 spell levels worth (20th level, 2x5th +1x4th or 2x5th + 2x24th).
The Wizard can cast ANY spell he/she/it can find in a written form, at least, given time to study it. They are the only class that doesn't "know" spells. They have an external "knowledge" - the spell books they own. Note the plural - wizards can gain a lot of flexibility by KTAATTS-ing other wizards. Whatever is in their books, they can have ready in the morning. THis is a VERY wide potential. Likewise, they can pay to add new spells. Plus, the ability to recover slots is better than that of the sorcerer, but it's a fixed and dedicated feature - it only recovers spell slots, and it cannot be used to do other metamagic stuff; the peak is in fact 20 levels worth of spells, and can recover up to 6th level slots, for a peak of 3x6th +1x2 at 20th level. It takes longer, but is more potent and more flexible than Sorcerous conversion of SP to slots.
So, a 5th level sorcerer knows 6 spells total, plus 5 cantrips. And can prepare 5+ChaMod spells. He's NEVER going to limit out unless he's got a Charisma below 10. You can change out spells at level-up - but ONLY at level up. (Barring Adv League play.)
The 5th level wizard has at least 10 spells, and can only memorize 5+IntMod of them By level 5, he's almost always got more spells in his books than he can have readied. And, given a long rest + a few minutes, you can swap any of the prepared ones out for a different one from your books. And you can add more from scrolls or from captured spellbooks.
That all said, the better proficiencies of the Sorcerer put it a bit over the top for me. But just a bit. Not nearly so munchkin as the Tiefling Blade Pact of the Old Ones Warlock...
Their spell lists overlap a lot. They both are full casters.
The big difference is flexibility in how they cast vs flexibility in what they cast.
The sorcerer can silence a spell, or twin one, or any of the other metamagics. But he knows only a small subset of spells off the class list at all, and cannot pick up new ones except by level-up. He also doesn't need books to swap amongst that subset. They have a limited ability to recharge spells on the fly at best, 14 spell levels worth (20th level, 2x5th +1x4th or 2x5th + 2x24th).
The Wizard can cast ANY spell he/she/it can find in a written form, at least, given time to study it. They are the only class that doesn't "know" spells. They have an external "knowledge" - the spell books they own. Note the plural - wizards can gain a lot of flexibility by KTAATTS-ing other wizards. Whatever is in their books, they can have ready in the morning. THis is a VERY wide potential. Likewise, they can pay to add new spells. Plus, the ability to recover slots is better than that of the sorcerer, but it's a fixed and dedicated feature - it only recovers spell slots, and it cannot be used to do other metamagic stuff; the peak is in fact 20 levels worth of spells, and can recover up to 6th level slots, for a peak of 3x6th +1x2 at 20th level. It takes longer, but is more potent and more flexible than Sorcerous conversion of SP to slots.
So, a 5th level sorcerer knows 6 spells total, plus 5 cantrips. And can prepare 5+ChaMod spells. He's NEVER going to limit out unless he's got a Charisma below 10. You can change out spells at level-up - but ONLY at level up. (Barring Adv League play.)
The 5th level wizard has at least 10 spells, and can only memorize 5+IntMod of them By level 5, he's almost always got more spells in his books than he can have readied. And, given a long rest + a few minutes, you can swap any of the prepared ones out for a different one from your books. And you can add more from scrolls or from captured spellbooks.
That all said, the better proficiencies of the Sorcerer put it a bit over the top for me. But just a bit. Not nearly so munchkin as the Tiefling Blade Pact of the Old Ones Warlock...
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