D&D 5E Array v 4d6: Punishment? Or overlooked data

[TwoSix]

Except, as stated, his "unfun" is someone else's "fun"...and vice versa. Rhetorically claiming that only one clause is true clouds the issue.

To that end, I am not claiming one side is superior or exclusive, just bringing to the fore that there are equally valid definitions of "fair" within the game system, and hopefully doing away with the temptation to use that loaded word within this context.

Using words like fair and/or unfun add nothing to the conversation, I agree. I think the more interesting questions is what virtues are added to game by ignoring intra-PC balance as a consideration? Is it merely verisimilitude (not to minimize that verisimilitude is a primary consideration for many gamers)? Or are there other gains to gameplay that maybe aren't as obvious?

 

[pemerton]

The spellfire 'one man party' I talked about up thread is a great example, in game he told everyone he just wants to be a farmer... on of the PCs didn't understand why I would want to play a farmer so bad... I didn't, I wanted to ply a reluctant hero...

When you say "one of the PCs", do you mean "one of the players"?

Anyway, of course you can tell the GM what you want to do/be in the game, but as is often the case actions can speak louder than words. Building a PC is taking action.

 

[pemerton]

I think the more interesting questions is what virtues are added to game by ignoring intra-PC balance as a consideration? Is it merely verisimilitude

I want to know how it adds verisimilitude.

I'm not saying that it detracts from verisimilitude, but I don't see how it adds it. What is un-verisimilitudinous about a group of heroes, each of whom is either a specialist of roughly equal competence, or a generalist who is not as good in any area of endeavour as one of the specialists? What typical, real life experience of heroic parties does this contradict?

 

[Sunseeker]

Anyway, of course you can tell the GM what you want to do/be in the game, but as is often the case actions can speak louder than words. Building a PC is taking action.

But as people have pointed out, an unclear one. I build a bard with high charisma, am I a great musician? Do I do fun geriatrics while telling stories? Am I the sexiest, but perhaps least-silver-tongued man around?

The stats by no means are a clear indication to the DM the sort of content you want to experience.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I want to know how it adds verisimilitude.

I'm not saying that it detracts from verisimilitude, but I don't see how it adds it. What is un-verisimilitudinous about a group of heroes, each of whom is either a specialist of roughly equal competence, or a generalist who is not as good in any area of endeavour as one of the specialists? What typical, real life experience of heroic parties does this contradict?

It does contradict real-life experience, not of heroic parties but of trait distribution. In real life, intelligence and health are not anti-correlated, nor health and charisma, nor strength and health. Under point-buy they are anti-correlated because they all feed off the same resource.

That doesn't make point buy a bad game, to be sure, but it does damage verisimilitude, at least for people who are aware of real-life trait distributions.

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[FormerlyHemlock]

by the way the funny part is the [MENTION=6787650]emdw45[/MENTION] shows exactly why we are still argueing in the post he ask the question... because one side is so anti compromise that when asked if it would be fair to inflict real out of game pain they still wont give an inch...

In what way am I anti-compromise? Have I in any way insisted that you change your preference? Have I intimated moral failings in you because you play differently than I prefer to? Or are you just upset that I have a different opinion of what fairness is?

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[GMforPowergamers]

In what way am I anti-compromise? Have I in any way insisted that you change your preference? Have I intimated moral failings in you because you play differently than I prefer to? Or are you just upset that I have a different opinion of what fairness is?

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you are anti compromise when you get to the point of pretending that there is any need to debate weather randomly causeing real pain out of game is ok...

 

[Sacrosanct]

Someone's confusing "compromise" with "do it my way". Kind of ironic, actually. Because of all the 'sides" I see here, there is one side who absolutely will refuse to play any other way but theirs (everyone's stats have to be the same). By and large, the random die roll crowd is perfectly fine with you playing with whatever method you want as long as you don't force them to your preference of array/point buy only via implied accusations to their character ("Your way isn't fair or causes me actual pain").

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

you are anti compromise when you get to the point of pretending that there is any need to debate weather randomly causeing real pain out of game is ok...

Never said it was okay. It's stupid even if it's fair.

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[Campbell]

But as people have pointed out, an unclear one. I build a bard with high charisma, am I a great musician? Do I do fun geriatrics while telling stories? Am I the sexiest, but perhaps least-silver-tongued man around?

The stats by no means are a clear indication to the DM the sort of content you want to experience.

Character creation is not the end of the conversation, rather it is the beginning of on going conversation that exists as long as the game is being played. Would it be better if we were all able to effectively communicate all our expectations and wants effectively? Sure, but we communicate on many levels.