D&D 5E Array v 4d6: Punishment? Or overlooked data

[Sunseeker]

No idea why you're getting defensive here. Like I said, for me, this is not a fairness issue at all, but a DM issue. Because die rolled characters are very often higher statted than point buy overall, then it makes the group punch above its weight class, meaning that the DM needs to use harder encounters to challenge the party. Which means that the group will advance faster, will receive higher rewards - ie. better magic items - which means that the group will punch even more above its weight class. Which means that the group will take on even more difficult challenges, get even more XP, and greater rewards, and spiral ever onwards and upwards.

That is, assuming of course that everything is "by the book".

I generally find that advancement has far more to do with party composition and the tactical cohesion of a group than high-powered stats. High powered stats can indeed go a long way through simple mathematics, but more often than not, battles are won and lost though quality of tactics. But numerical superiority helps.

I have to question if "everything going according to the mathematics set forth in the official rulebooks" is really all that important?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Bear would have been at a HUGE advantage over standard array. Remember, he was an AD&D character, so that maxed Str bonus would have been tremendous. In fact, it would have been bigger by itself than the total from standard array.

But again, that PC's stats were neither die roll nor point buy (which I don't think existed at the time), but were actually negotiated with the DM. Not only that, nobody else at the table had a problem with his stats at all...and they had all rolled theirs.

 

[Hussar]

Bear would have been at a HUGE advantage over standard array. Remember, he was an AD&D character, so that maxed Str bonus would have been tremendous. In fact, it would have been bigger by itself than the total from standard array.

But again, that PC's stats were neither die roll nor point buy (which I don't think existed at the time), but were actually negotiated with the DM. Not only that, nobody else at the table had a problem with his stats at all...and they had all rolled theirs.

What were their stats? Did anyone have the 1 less than standard array? Or, were the die rolled characters also above standard array? See, the problem is, everyone talks about how their character (single) might be below average, but, I'm talking about the group as a whole. Saying, "Well, this one character was below standard" doesn't really prove anything when the rest of the group is higher, or significantly higher.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

OTOH, if the player rolled 1 less in every stat - 13, 12, 11, 10, 8, 6 - many DM's would allow a reroll of that character. In 3e, it would be automatic since his total bonus is -1. In 3e, this character was considered unplayable, by the rules.

Good thing I skipped 3E then! That array isn't remotely unplayable. You could be a variant human fighter and start out with 14 Dex, Sharpshooter, and Archery style. I've seen guys like that handle quintuple-deadly encounters solo at level two (4 orcs on horses) with aplomb (and a little bit of luck). You could be a Moon Druid and have 20 Wis and the Mobile feat by level 12 (a Mobile elephant is something to behold). You could be a wizard and do just fine even if you never raised your Int at all, simply by targeting weak saves and buffing your buddies with Haste.

In some circumstances, such a PC could even be preferable to a more powerful character (like point buy). For instance, if I were playing in a group with weaker/newer players, I might rather be the 13/12/11/10/8/6 guy than a 15/12/7/8/12/14 guy just because that aligns my mechanical optimal play with my goal as a player: take a back seat and support the other PCs without stealing the spotlight.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

No idea why you're getting defensive here. Like I said, for me, this is not a fairness issue at all, but a DM issue.

JamesonCourage's post didn't seem defensive to me. It sounded weary: sick to death of beating a dead horse.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

What were their stats? Did anyone have the 1 less than standard array? Or, were the die rolled characters also above standard array? See, the problem is, everyone talks about how their character (single) might be below average, but, I'm talking about the group as a whole. Saying, "Well, this one character was below standard" doesn't really prove anything when the rest of the group is higher, or significantly higher.

God only knows- that was back in 1980 or so, and for the most part, nobody ever looked at anyone else's PCs. Your sheet wasn't anyone else's business except the DM's. (Which, FWIW, is something that has kinda been the standard at most tables I've sat down to.)

I don't recall anyone being über, and given that DM, I wouldn't expect many of them to be. By & large, he favored 4d6 drop lowest in order, or 3d6 arrange as you like. For a long time, the driving dynamic in that campaign was the way Bear almost unquestioningly followed the orders of the party thief, for whom he was the sworn bodyguard.

 

[Hussar]

Good thing I skipped 3E then! That array isn't remotely unplayable. You could be a variant human fighter and start out with 14 Dex, Sharpshooter, and Archery style. I've seen guys like that handle quintuple-deadly encounters solo at level two (4 orcs on horses) with aplomb (and a little bit of luck). You could be a Moon Druid and have 20 Wis and the Mobile feat by level 12 (a Mobile elephant is something to behold). You could be a wizard and do just fine even if you never raised your Int at all, simply by targeting weak saves and buffing your buddies with Haste.

In some circumstances, such a PC could even be preferable to a more powerful character (like point buy). For instance, if I were playing in a group with weaker/newer players, I might rather be the 13/12/11/10/8/6 guy than a 15/12/7/8/12/14 guy just because that aligns my mechanical optimal play with my goal as a player: take a back seat and support the other PCs without stealing the spotlight.

So, your current group, presuming die roll, looks like the -1 stat array?

Look, the point I'm trying to make here isn't about YOU. It's about the group. Even if your character actually is the -1 stat array, if the group is die rolled, it's very likely that the other characters are well ahead of the curve. And it's funny how all the "Well, it's no problem, just take this broken feat (which has been very extensively argued that it's broken) and you'll be fine".

A 4 PC group using standard array has a total of +20 in stat bonuses. Take a minute to canvas your current die rolled group and take things like level bumps and racial bonuses into account, and I'll bet dollars to donuts that your 4 PC group is somewhere in the neighbourhood of +30 or more for its total bonuses. I'll pay double if your group is actually LESS than +20.

Any takers?

 

[Hussar]

Are you sure? No, seriously- I have no idea what the standard array is offhand, so I have no way to formulate an accurate response.

Edit: if this poster is correct:

Then your assertion is incorrect:

Note, your character has a total of +3 for his stats. He's a bit under par, but, not too far. And, again, was the entire group like this?

 

[Hussar]

Good thing I skipped 3E then! That array isn't remotely unplayable. You could be a variant human fighter and start out with 14 Dex, Sharpshooter, and Archery style. I've seen guys like that handle quintuple-deadly encounters solo at level two (4 orcs on horses) with aplomb (and a little bit of luck). You could be a Moon Druid and have 20 Wis and the Mobile feat by level 12 (a Mobile elephant is something to behold). You could be a wizard and do just fine even if you never raised your Int at all, simply by targeting weak saves and buffing your buddies with Haste.

In some circumstances, such a PC could even be preferable to a more powerful character (like point buy). For instance, if I were playing in a group with weaker/newer players, I might rather be the 13/12/11/10/8/6 guy than a 15/12/7/8/12/14 guy just because that aligns my mechanical optimal play with my goal as a player: take a back seat and support the other PCs without stealing the spotlight.

Hang on, how did your Moon Druid get that feat? He needed three straight stat bumps to get that 20 Wis. Sorry, no feat for you. Even with a +2 from race, he starts at 15, which takes +5, and Mobility doesn't give you a Wis bonus. Of course, if you're taking Variant Human, you might be able to do it. But, you're still stuck failing virtually every non-Wis saving throw, and failing every non-Wis skill check.

Now compare to the fairly standard +1 Array die rolled PC. That same Moon Druid now has three additional feats and +1-3 on every saving throw and skill check. How much is that worth? Now multiply that by 4 PC's. How much is that worth?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Note, your character has a total of +3 for his stats. He's a bit under par, but, not too far. And, again, was the entire group like this?

In THAT campaign, all the other PCs used the DM's point buy, which used different mechanics, but was functionally the same as the standard point buy. One player objected to my PC's build*- not stats- so I tore it up in his face and did 4d6 drop lowest in order at the table.





* it was 2Ed Player's Option, we were both going to play clerics. Mine had a Norse/Icelandic bent, his was more of a spell casting martial artist. He felt that because I had access to Ftr Att bonuses- as his did martial artist cleric- and a school of Wizardry- as his did- while having decent armor (his didn't) and more clerical domains, that somehow I was playing- and I quote- "Superman."

Except that all but 3 of my PC's spells were buffs or abjurations, and most of the Domains he had access to, he had only minor access to: IOW capped at 3rd level spells.