D&D 5E 5th Edition has broken Bounded Accuracy

[Fanaelialae]

Yeah it's all too many ifs for my tastes. We also play Dragons to win, not to be cinematic.

My dragons play to win, it's simply that I take their motivations into account. The dragon wants the intruders out of its home and away from its treasure. It's not going to fly around slow roasting them, it's going to throw everything it has at them. Because if it flies away and waits for its breath to recharge, they might steal treasure. And no dragon worth its salt would allow such a thing.

 

[DaveDash]

My dragons play to win, it's simply that I take their motivations into account. The dragon wants the intruders out of its home and away from its treasure. It's not going to fly around slow roasting them, it's going to throw everything it has at them. Because if it flies away and waits for its breath to recharge, they might steal treasure. And no dragon worth its salt would allow such a thing.

No you're not. An adult Red Dragon played to win would engage the party as they're scaling the cliff of the volcano it lairs on, knowing the slick magma offers no protection for them.

Waiting until the party is basically at its hoard is not smart.

 

[Fanaelialae]

No you're not. An adult Red Dragon played to win would engage the party as they're scaling the cliff of the volcano it lairs on, knowing the slick magma offers no protection for them.

Waiting until the party is basically at its hoard is not smart.

Of course it would. Assuming it knew they were coming.

Otherwise it would be with its horde. Because that's what dragons classically enjoy; spending time with their treasure.

EDIT: While dragons are known for their smarts, they're also known for the flaws of pride and greed. I play them smart, but within that context. It's a dragon, not Mr Spock after all.

 

[keterys]

The game works reasonably well up to about level 8, it's past that things start to become strained, becoming more apparent the higher you go.

I'm really not a fan of levels 1-4, so this is an awful squeaky range to work in for me

 

[Celtavian]

My dragons play to win, it's simply that I take their motivations into account. The dragon wants the intruders out of its home and away from its treasure. It's not going to fly around slow roasting them, it's going to throw everything it has at them. Because if it flies away and waits for its breath to recharge, they might steal treasure. And no dragon worth its salt would allow such a thing.

Do you think the dragon will stand around while you find the most valuable item in its hoard? Are you doing this alone? How did you locate its hoard while it is slow roasting you? The average time to recharge the breath weapon is 18 seconds. Do you think a dragon minds waiting 18 seconds between strafes?

A combat found is 6 seconds. So a dragon isn't waiting very long to slow roast you. 18 to 24 seconds between strafes. Not much at all.

 

[Celtavian]

See, if an enlarged fighter grappled a huge dragon in my game, he'd have the choice to fall with it or release it. He wouldn't be able to hold it in the air though, for the same reason he wouldn't be able to lift the dragon off the ground if he tried the same thing at ground level. Granted, a magical hand of force doesn't have to follow the same logic, which is why it's the DM's call.

I don't have falling break a grapple by default. To me, that would be absurd. Unlike most forced movement, falling is not an explosive force. You can easily find videos of people linking hands while falling. Therefore, it stands to reason that falling doesn't automatically break a grapple so long as both parties are falling. Besides, tackling a flying creature out of the air has made for some epic moments in previous campaigns.

This is a matter of different DM's attempt at cinematic effect. The rules don't make it clear if a grapple can be maintained while falling. Generally falling is involuntary movement which can break a grapple. If we were using a simulationist approach the grappler has no leverage to grapple any longer. I'm not even sure I would allow grappling to restrain a flying dragon. So what if you grapple a dragon's limb with a free hand. He keeps on flying carrying you. If the grappler isn't firmly planted on the ground, what leverage does he have to hold the dragon in place?

Cross your fingers and hope Absorb Elements / Shield (depending on what the dragon is attacking with) is enough to keep you going. It's not really all that different from miscalculating because you assumed the DM would use a non-spellcasting dragon, but instead the dragon Dispels the warrior's Fly spell and the warrior gets reacquainted with gravity. If we (gamers) didn't enjoy a certain degree of randomness, we'd sit around a table telling stories without using dice.

I hate dying too, but sometimes the dice won't fall your way. If the paladin flies up to engage the dragon and the dragon responds with a flurry of nat 20s that kill the paladin, then you probably die.

Telekinesis is a valid choice. It's riskier than Fly, but the reward is greater. There's certainly no shame in preferring the more conservative gamble, but you're still gambling either way.

If it had been a spellcasting variant, we would have died. Campaign over, at least at 8th level.

You can't exactly assume that every party will have access to Fly. I'm playing a level 7 wizard and I didn't pick Fly. Unless I happen to find it somewhere, my party will be going through the rest of that campaign without Fly.

Every party is different. (Technically with point buy you could make the exact same party over and over, but who would honestly do that?) The best anyone can do is point out potential strategies for beating a dragon if you have this or your have that.

I hope you have quality ranged attackers. If you run into some powerful fliers and can't get to them, you're in for some problems without some ranged power.

The great thing about Sentinel is that once he has the dragon on lockdown, the dragon will probably stay on lockdown. And unless the dragon has used divination to research the party, or the DM is meta-gaming, the dragon has no means to avoid being put into lockdown as long as the Sentinel can get adjacent to it.

Sentinel can definitely be powerful. His only option at that point is kill the Sentinel character as fast as possible. I would focus all his attacks on the Sentinel or use his reaction early on his regular attack, then move again with a Wing Attack. Spend the rest of the fight focusing on strafing and destroying the sentinel character or swoop down, grapple him with bite, and fly off, and drop him somewhere that will take him a while to get back or kill him. At least the dragon might try that, but he might not be successful. Heavily armored defensive melees using Sentinel with a few magic items are tough as hell. That's why I don't worry about sword and board too much. You can make a very dangerous defensive martial.

 

[Celtavian]

I did say to stay inside the Hamsterball until the dragon wasted its breath weapon. This strategy is predicated on the assumption that the dragon doesn't fall back on the incredibly boring tactic of only making breath weapon strafing runs against the party. It only works if he makes melee strafing runs against the party.

Can't the dragon wait out the hamsterball? It can see it with blindsight because it is a solid structure.

 

[kalil]

Clearly a smart dragon would fly away to roast a nearby laketown while leaving the thieves alone with it's hoard.

 

[Hussar]

Couple of questions.

1. Why are we insisting on the big level gap? It is a deadly encounter. The pc's are supposed to die. Maybe not tpk, but there should almost always be dead pc's at the end. If you have found tactics that ensure no PC deaths ever, that's not a case of one being too weak but rather the latter being too strong.

2. Since when is it the dm's job to whack pc's? That's easy to do. Dragon bugs out for a little while to wait out your buffs and then starts dropping ten pound boulders from 500 feet. Dead party. Not much fun. Killing pc's is easy. Challenging them is hard.

 

[Hussar]

Just as another point, if the dragon wants to win, just attack at night. 120 foot dark vision right. I don't have my books right now but I think that's what dragons have. Your flying paladin closes, gets wing buffeted 20 feet away plus 40 foot move followed by breath attack on the dragon's turn and 80 foot move in any direction. Wash and repeat and fliers all die because they'll never find the dragon to attack it.