D&D 5E Current take on GWM/SS

[Celtavian]

That's a fatal flaw - Crits really skew the numbers (in favor of the feat)... Especially since it's just +(0.05*(avgOnDamageDie)) DPA.

Crits should not affect either feat at all. They are static damage. They are not doubled on a crit.

Your numbers are flawed by virtue of (1) selection bias

Optimized use of the feats requires selection bias. That is when they are used.

& (2) small sample.

All D&D fights last a few rounds. What are you looking for? A 100 different fights? You can't use a 100 rounds. D&D fights don't last that long.

Yes, Bless is a potential problem. But bless is limited uses - so if it's dominating, the solution is not to nerf the feat (which is, most of the time, inferior to or only barely better than the attribute raise it replaces); the proper solution is to nerf the caster of Bless - and as with all non-warlock spell casters - which is done by forcing them to use spells before the bigbad. And remember the time limits.

Don't give them a break between the battles - as they're finishing up wave 1, wave 2 shows up.

bless is a 1st level spell. You can cast it nearly every major battle at higher level. Now you're talking about encounter design specifically stop a tactic. I already do that. If you're designing encounters to stop a single spell or feat, what does that say about the spell?

Use dispel magic on blessed foes.

A 3rd level spell to get rid of a 1st level spell? Who's going to win that race?

Occasionally, have a fallback-engagement... where the badguys are in range, but never close to melee, and retreat when PC's try.
See if you can split the party.

How does that help for Sharpshooter?

On the other hand, D&D is (and has been since early on) Medieval Super Heroes. Just look at the fighter level titles in the little brown/white books...

Sure. Everyone is supposed to be a Medieval Super Hero, not just the guys using those feats.

Feats need to be power climb. Spells need to be power climb, too. But the power climb of the power attack feats is NOT gained when the needed rolls are around 15's, ±(1 to 2), widest for the strongest. (Which, for a 1st level party, is AC 18-22, for needed TH rolls of 13-18).

So when he needs a 15 to hit? That is pretty narrow, especially at higher level.

And, while I don't have roll logs (I don't play online, because my experieces with D&D online play are EXCEEDINGLY negative due to living up to bad D&D player stereotypes), my experiences with 30+ sessions with people using power attacks, even those who have a clue haven't done the math, and make suboptimal choices (giving up chance to hit 3-4 turns running). And, I should rerun them accounting for advantage - which at my table is far more rare than Bardic Inspiration... I've only had bless cast once, and I will admit that I've never DM'd a 5E party above 8th level. But, at least in the 4th-8th range, it's been consistently misused.

I'm finding that out. I'm starting to seriously wonder how many groups focus on making optimal choices. A group that didn't make optimal choices might not even take the feat. I had a player that thought 3E metamagic feats were stupid at one point until he saw them used by an optimizer.

 

[DaveDash]

Seems to be like there's a ton of players who don't go past level 8 and think everything is rosy.

Probably why the feats are there in the first place and won't be changed, by the time they start to become a real issue most campaigns are ending.

Which is weird I find because we've levelled quite fast in 5e. Level 17 soon. Never had a campaign go this high without starting high.

 

[Celtavian]

Let's try to sum this up.

The Optimzer Group Argument

You lose no damage when not using the feats. You do the same as GWF or archer that doesn't use the feats. If the math shows it's bad to use them, don't. You should know the attack roll when it is bad to use either feat. You should not use them when that is the target roll to hit. When it is optimal to use them, use them. You should know the number when it is optimal to use either feat. By knowing your target numbers and using the feats when it is optimal, you'll end up doing the same damage as others in regular fights and doing far more when you use them skewing the damage in your favor.

Now if some GWF or archer doesn't take either feat, he doesn't have this option. So he will fall behind in damage even if he uses a weapon that makes Sharpshooter or GWF a smaller percentage of damage. You're only using the feats when it is optimal to do so. So it's always a positive. Not having the feats given your fighting style leaves you without the option of using them making you inferior to a character with them.

Other classes have no feat that allows them to spike damage. So they will never be able to increase damage in a similar fashion because the fighting style you chose or class does not have the option to do so. If you do not have the option, you cannot do it. Period. Thus the best you can do is equal the GWF or archer when he isn't using the feat. You never match his damage when they are using the feat.

If you don't have the option of boosting your damage, you can't match the damage of someone with the feats. Thus the person with the feats will always over time do more damage, a rather substantial amount when the conditions are optimal for use. Dave and I believe these conditions occur often under normal play circumstances. Thus the feats are must haves that overshadow other fighting options in the game.

The various other arguments against them being a problem:

1. Most groups don't work out the math to the point where they know the numbers for optimal use.

2. DMs can counter by making the numbers favor not using the feats.

3. Most groups don't focus on optimizing for these feats.

4. I don't care. Let the martials hammer with those feats.

That seems to be the various views in this discussion.

 

[Celtavian]

Seems to be like there's a ton of players who don't go past level 8 and think everything is rosy.

Probably why the feats are there in the first place and won't be changed, by the time they start to become a real issue most campaigns are ending.

Which is weird I find because we've levelled quite fast in 5e. Level 17 soon. Never had a campaign go this high without starting high.

Leveling is super easy in 5E. Even with Sharpshooter and GWM, high level 5E play is so much easier to run. No crazy spell lists. Easy to build monsters for focused encounters. No long lists of buffs or tons of disposable magic. So far, I haven't run into the crazy conjuror yet. Compared to Pathfinder/3E, high level play is a pleasure. Remember the nightmare encounter creation in Pathfinder at high level. I shudder to think of it.

 

[KarinsDad]

We were escaping.
But bugbears did what bugbears do and they got us in a hallway.

Sure. But having a tank would not have been a guarantee of success in such a situation. Having a tank does not mean that the party can take on a bugbear fight while mostly out of resources.

 

[KarinsDad]

3. Most groups don't focus on optimizing for these feats.

I don't think that this is the case at all in actual play. Once a group sees how well it works around 5th level with Extra Attack (or with Hold Person/Monster which most of the caster classes get and especially 11th level with a Fighter in the group), they will often (if not almost always) start buffing around the GWM/SS PCs. Maybe not to a super optimized level, but quite a bit. I also suspect that at many tables, more than one player will take the feat.

 

[Celtavian]

I don't think that this is the case at all in actual play. Once a group sees how well it works around 5th level with Extra Attack (or with Hold Person/Monster which most of the caster classes get and especially 11th level with a Fighter in the group), they will often (if not almost always) start buffing around the GWM/SS PCs. Maybe not to a super optimized level, but quite a bit. I also suspect that at many tables, more than one player will take the feat.

You have a seven person group. Did anyone in your group take the feats? Is your party buffing to assist them? I think you said you had some druids? So faerie fire instead of bless? Faerie fire is really powerful. I want to see what faerie fire and bless do together. You might even be able to stick faerie fire on a legendary creature if they think it is a weak effect that won't damage them. They may just let it happen.

 

[Minigiant]

Seems to be like there's a ton of players who don't go past level 8 and think everything is rosy.

Probably why the feats are there in the first place and won't be changed, by the time they start to become a real issue most campaigns are ending.

Which is weird I find because we've levelled quite fast in 5e. Level 17 soon. Never had a campaign go this high without starting high.

Well there's that, the fact that many parties lack a dedicated buffer or debuffer, archer is a 5th wheel role in D&D if the party isn't optimizing individually and GW warriors have mobility/range issues, and cheap low CR monsters can spam attacks for cheap Concentration checks.

Personally I think War Caster is some kind of reverse psychology trick to get DMs to put kobolds in boxes just to pop out and force DC 10 Con checks to lose concentration.

A cleric's nightmare is a high CR monster in the middle with some kobolds wit +1 blowguns each in a different corner out of AOE range.

 

[Celtavian]

Well there's that, the fact that many parties lack a dedicated buffer or debuffer, archer is a 5th wheel role in D&D if the party isn't optimizing individually and GW warriors have mobility/range issues, and cheap low CR monsters can spam attacks for cheap Concentration checks.

Personally I think War Caster is some kind of reverse psychology trick to get DMs to put kobolds in boxes just to pop out and force DC 10 Con checks to lose concentration.

A cleric's nightmare is a high CR monster in the middle with some kobolds wit +1 blowguns each in a different corner out of AOE range.

That would be so annoying without Resilient: Con or Warcaster. Can you imagine concentration in a campaign that didn't allow feats? Must be a nightmare for casters. They must be hating life.

 

[DaveDash]

Just for giggles - not really trying to prove anything here - I found some more numbers from a high level fight we had recently.

DM wanted to play test a custom creation of his - this massive abomination of a thing called the 'Haug-maag'. It was a hell of a thing to fight, CR20. Mostly because he gave it way too many riders (stun on hit, fear aura, roll on the madness table in its presence lol, and he gave it the Krakens swallow ability but made it so it could attack and bite in the same round it could grapple).

I also wanted to play test a couple of concepts for some characters I am playing right now at a higher level.

Level 17 Frenzy Barbarian (GMW), 17 Draconic Sorcerer, Fighter/Cleric(War), and Rogue15/Ftr2. The frenzy barbarian got completed fouled up in this fight and was pretty ineffective. Made me miss having a Paladin with misty step and their fear immunity aura.



Despite having about 450 hp, it only lasted 2.5 rounds.