D&D 5E If the characters are super optimized should the monsters be boosted too?

[Lord Vangarel]

We've been playing 5E for a year now and one thing I'm starting to notice is the characters as they reach mid upper levels are starting to blast through monsters like a hot knife through butter.

To give a bit of background the characters are fairly optimized but only in so far as taking the feats available to them, having pretty good stats, and well above average hit points.

Has anyone else noticed that the monsters in the Monster Manual seem a little underpowered?

As an example last night the characters were due to fight an adult Green dragon, and given previous recent experience I decided to boost it by giving it two young dragons as a boost. Anyway the end result was that the party blitzed all three and an npc spellcaster and the only character really in any danger during the encounter was the party wizard due to lower AC and hit points.

Now it's not just dragons but this is especially relevant as dragons are supposed to be the big uber bad guys in the game however they're not. Dragons are now skirmishers having to cut and run at every opportunity. If the dragon stays at range it gets blitzed by range attacks (Sharp Shooter is just mad) and ranged spells. If it engages in a melee fight it lasts 2-3 rounds before dying (Great Weapon Master is equally mad).

Am I missing something or should I be adjusting monsters to fit the optimized characters?

 

[Prism]

Its not so much that the monsters need a boost, just that the default encounter planning guidelines don't cope with optimized characters so well. You will get a feeling for the party and learn how early in a parties career you can introduce an adult green dragon to make it a challenge. In your case it sounds like a few levels earlier. You also have to judge based on the party. An adult green would mash our parties typically as we don't have a dedicated ranged attacker

Few problems with it though. Purchased adventures have to be rethought or run at lower levels. Also at high levels you run out of monster manual stuff to fight. And sometimes a higher monster has some ability that can end in a TPK even though on paper you judged it right. For example our party all failed our saving throws in round one versus a demi lich though it was well within our capabilities

 

[Celtavian]

Yes. If you allow feats, you have to adjust monsters for that. If you allow magic items, you have to adjust for that. The base game is built for no feats and no magic items. A DM must adjust if he allows them. If you allow characters to roll stats in such a way they have high stats, you have to adjust for that. If you want to provide a challenge to your party, you should adjust the power of monsters until you do so.

 

[Psikerlord#]

The OP's problem is the -5/+10 mechanic from GWM and SS. Get rid of that, fights are more challenging.

But to answer the Q, yep, you're going to have to add more monsters (which makes optimizing self defeating, but then every long term player works that out after a while. At about which time they start making more interesting PCs as opposed to overpowered ones).

 

[Psikerlord#]

The OP's problem is the -5/+10 mechanic from GWM and SS. Get rid of that, fights are more challenging.

But to answer the Q, yep, you're going to have to add more monsters (which makes optimizing self defeating, but then every long term player works that out after a while. At about which time they start making more interesting PCs as opposed to overpowered ones, and end up having more fun).

 

[Mishihari Lord]

Of course. The DM's job is to provide an entertaining challenge. Anything else is a guideline at most. You are free to use any type and strength of opponent you wish to make that happen.

 

[Dragonsbane]

I would add things in a consistent manner. All my monsters usually have:

- 2 saves minimum, usually determined by monster type or highest stats
- AC bonus equal to half its proficiency bonus. This could go up to +3, just like magical item bonuses
- One feat, or a custom ability about as powerful as a feat, to counteract player feats and keep MM readers on their toes

Also, for flavor in my homebrew I give critters these immunities and resistances:
Aberrations
Condition Immunity frightened
Damage Immunity psychic

Dragons
Condition Immunity frightened, stunned

Fey
Condition Immunity charmed

Undead
Condition Immunity charmed, exhaustion, frightened, paralyzed, poisoned
Damage Immunity necrotic, poisoned, psychic

No TPK yet, but also the players have not become unstoppable killing machines, even in a 13th level evil PC game.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Yes. If you allow feats, you have to adjust monsters for that. If you allow magic items, you have to adjust for that. The base game is built for no feats and no magic items. A DM must adjust if he allows them. If you allow characters to roll stats in such a way they have high stats, you have to adjust for that. If you want to provide a challenge to your party, you should adjust the power of monsters until you do so.

Yarp. If your party has higher stats than the default, more than average hit points, feats, and magic items, then they are going to constantly punch above and beyond the normal CR for a group of the same level without these things.

The easiest modification to do first is monster hit points. Jack them on up. If the PCs all have close to maximum hit points then the monsters should too. If you use monsters a bit higher on the CR food chain than suggested, AND boost up their wimpy hit points, then you start seeing some decent matches.

Remember though, not EVERY combat encounter has to be on highest end of the lethality scale, but finding out where that is for your group will be helpful in planning all encounter types. Also keep in mind that its OK if there is sometimes a combat that is just too overwhelming. Knowing when to fight and when to retreat is an adventuring skill.

 

[Mephista]

Short answer? Yes.

Long answer? Absolutely.

 

[iserith]

We've been playing 5E for a year now and one thing I'm starting to notice is the characters as they reach mid upper levels are starting to blast through monsters like a hot knife through butter.

To give a bit of background the characters are fairly optimized but only in so far as taking the feats available to them, having pretty good stats, and well above average hit points.

Has anyone else noticed that the monsters in the Monster Manual seem a little underpowered?

As an example last night the characters were due to fight an adult Green dragon, and given previous recent experience I decided to boost it by giving it two young dragons as a boost. Anyway the end result was that the party blitzed all three and an npc spellcaster and the only character really in any danger during the encounter was the party wizard due to lower AC and hit points.

Now it's not just dragons but this is especially relevant as dragons are supposed to be the big uber bad guys in the game however they're not. Dragons are now skirmishers having to cut and run at every opportunity. If the dragon stays at range it gets blitzed by range attacks (Sharp Shooter is just mad) and ranged spells. If it engages in a melee fight it lasts 2-3 rounds before dying (Great Weapon Master is equally mad).

Am I missing something or should I be adjusting monsters to fit the optimized characters?

What level are the PCs? What races and classes and notable options do they have? An adult green dragon (CR 15) and two young green dragons (CR 8 each) have an adjusted XP value of 41,600 XP. By the numbers that's "Deadly" for up to four 18th level PCs (not that I think the numbers are all that accurate when it comes to actual play). What were the other elements of the scene - terrain, use of lair actions, monster goals, PC goals, etc.? Are you bringing your A-game when making choices for the monsters? Are you doing things that force the players off their standard operating procedure and onto their backup plan? How many fights did they get into that day prior to this scene?

Was the scene fun for both you and the players? Did it tell an exciting, memorable story? Your objections seem to be centered around the scene not lasting as long as you would like or not doing enough damage to the characters. What's your metric for determining when a scene is long enough or damaging enough?

Personally, I don't generally change monsters. But I do present scenes that involve more than a race to 0 hit points. This allows for even crummy monsters to present a challenge to players with optimized characters. I could suggest some ideas to you using the green dragon encounter as an example, but need some more information.