D&D 5E Why do wizards STILL have to use daggers, etc.?

[fromthe1980s]

Why can't WotC/D&D create a spellcaster, specifically a wizard, who never needs to resort to weapons like swords and bows? I played the basic rules boxed set in the 1980s when the Magic-User got one magic missile and then had to use a dagger for the rest of the adventure. I was recently excited to start playing again with my kids and 5e, which I like in general. However, even with cantrips (new to me) we still have a few spells and then pull out the ole dagger! Same is true for warlocks, sorcerers, etc. It is easy to play a Barbarian or Fighter with no spells and many types of creative combat maneuvers, why not all spells for the wizards?

 

[jayoungr]

Why would you use a dagger rather than a cantrip? Cantrips do more damage, and you can cast them all day.

 

[fromthe1980s]

Cantrips are fine for low levels, but some don't scale or don't keep up with the damage possible by other classes.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Hey-- welcome to the boards. Your concern seems to be shifting: on the one hand, you think you still need to use a dagger in 5e (which is ime simply not true); on the other hand you think that "some" cantrips don't scale as you go up in levels (though others do).

Cantrips consistently do more damage than daggers.
There is no need (using default assumptions about spell selection) ever to use a dagger (in that doing so results in on average less damage per round).
The same is true for sorcerers and warlocks.

Perhaps you could be more specific about your concerns? Because they don't make sense to me.

 

[Dragonblade]

Damage dealing cantrips do scale with level and have no daily casting limit. So you should never need to use a dagger as a 5e wizard. Can you provide an example of where you feel you need to pull out a dagger as a wizard?

 

[mach1.9pants]

Damage dealing cantrips do scale with level and have no daily casting limit. So you should never need to use a dagger as a 5e wizard. Can you provide an example of where you feel you need to pull out a dagger as a wizard?

Too drunk to cast a spell? Double dare from the Rogue? Cos unless you choose all non-attack cantrips (just possible) there is no reason!

 

[pukunui]

Cantrips are fine for low levels, but some don't scale or don't keep up with the damage possible by other classes.

Let's compare (PHB options only).

Wizard 1 (Dex 14, Int 16; PB +2)
Dagger: +4 to hit; 1 target; range 20'/60'; 4 (1d4 + 2) piercing dmg
Acid Splash: +5 to hit; 1-2 targets; range 60'; 3 (1d6) acid dmg
Chill Touch: +5 to hit; 1 target; range 120'; 4 (1d8) necrotic dmg + can't heal
Fire Bolt: +5 to hit; 1 target; range 120'; 5 (1d10) fire dmg + sets things on fire
Poison Spray: DC 13; 1 target; range 10'; 6 (1d12) poison dmg
Ray of Frost: +5 to hit; 1 target; range 60'; 4 (1d8) cold dmg + slowing
Shocking Grasp: +5 to hit; 1 target; touch; 4 (1d8) lightning dmg + no reaction

Wizard 5 (Dex 14, Int 18; PB +3)
Dagger: +5 to hit; 1 target; range 20'/60'; 4 (1d4 + 2) piercing dmg
Acid Splash: +7 to hit; 1-2 targets; range 60'; 7 (2d6) acid dmg
Chill Touch: +7 to hit; 1 target; range 120'; 9 (2d8) necrotic dmg + can't heal
Fire Bolt: +7 to hit; 1 target; range 120'; 11 (2d10) fire dmg + sets things on fire
Poison Spray: DC 15; 1 target; range 10'; 13 (2d12) poison dmg
Ray of Frost: +7 to hit; 1 target; range 60'; 9 (2d8) cold dmg + slowing
Shocking Grasp: +7 to hit; 1 target; touch; 9 (2d8) lightning dmg + no reaction

Wizard 11 (Dex 14, Int 20; PB +4)
Dagger: +6 to hit; 1 target; range 20'/60'; 4 (1d4 + 2) piercing dmg
Acid Splash: +9 to hit; 1-2 targets; range 60'; 10 (3d6) acid dmg
Chill Touch: +9 to hit; 1 target; range 120'; 13 (3d8) necrotic dmg + can't heal
Fire Bolt: +9 to hit; 1 target; range 120'; 16 (3d10) fire dmg + sets things on fire
Poison Spray: DC 17; 1 target; range 10'; 19 (3d12) poison dmg
Ray of Frost: +9 to hit; 1 target; range 60'; 13 (3d8) cold dmg + slowing
Shocking Grasp: +9 to hit; 1 target; touch; 13 (3d8) lightning dmg + no reaction

Wizard 17 (Dex 16, Int 20; PB +6)
Dagger: +9 to hit; 1 target; range 20'/60'; 5 (1d4 + 3) piercing dmg
Acid Splash: +11 to hit; 1-2 targets; range 60'; 14 (4d6) acid dmg
Chill Touch: +11 to hit; 1 target; range 120'; 18 (4d8) necrotic dmg + can't heal
Fire Bolt: +11 to hit; 1 target; range 120'; 22 (4d10) fire dmg + sets things on fire
Poison Spray: DC 19; 1 target; range 10'; 26 (4d12) poison dmg
Ray of Frost: +11 to hit; 1 target; range 60'; 18 (4d8) cold dmg + slowing
Shocking Grasp: +11 to hit; 1 target; touch; 18 (4d8) lightning dmg + no reaction


As you can see, *all* of the wizard's attack cantrips (in the PHB at least) scale with level, and most outperform a dagger even at first level. If you're worried about other classes' DPR outstripping the wizard's, I would think that relying on a dagger over cantrips would be even worse in that regard! Not only will the cantrips do more damage, the wizard will have an easier time hitting with them (assuming he's favoring Int over Dex).

 

[Lidgar]

Double dare from the Rogue?

I double-dagger dare you!

 

[Evenglare]

Just go ahead and close this thread. Cantrips scale with level, you never ever ever need to use a dagger. There is nothing more to say here. /thread.

 

[ranger69]

The only the reason I can think of for a wizard to use weapons is in a "magic suppression zone" . Or using the dagger to carve of a slice of meat at the dinner table.