D&D 5E Crossbows and dual-wielding

[redrick]

This is ineffective past level 5. You can't reload either crossbow without a free hand; thus, you can't get your second attack from Extra Attack if you're using two crossbows. (Also, you have to have Crossbow Expert to even try it. The two-weapon fighting rules specify melee weapons.)

There really isn't a good way of dual wielding crossbows in 5E. The hand crossbow fighter build uses a single crossbow and takes advantage of a loophole in Crossbow Expert: A hand crossbow is a one-handed weapon, and Crossbow Expert doesn't specify that the hand crossbow has to be in addition to the one-handed weapon. They can be the same weapon! So you use a single hand crossbow for both the Attack action and the bonus action attack, leaving your other hand free to reload. This has the additional advantage that if you find a magic hand crossbow, you can use it for all your attacks.

A rogue could still benefit. This is similar to how a rogue uses two-weapon fighting. If you miss with your first attack, you can still get an off-hand attack and a chance to still get your sneak attack for the round. A hand-crossbow wielding rogue can get this without having to be in melee range. Could be particularly useful for Assassins, where there are extra bonuses specifically tied to the first round of combat.

A fighter or ranger wielding two hand crossbows could still drop the left hand crossbow and have a free hand to reload for extra attacks, I believe.

The difference between two-handed weapons and needing a hand to reload is that a two-handed weapon ties up both hands to be wielded, while loading a crossbow (especially with the crossbow expert feat) only needs that hand for a small amount of time. So a character with a free hand can use that free hand for other things, as long as they aren't holding or wielding something in that free hand. A character wielding a heavier crossbow needs both hands to effectively aim their weapon, so they couldn't use that free hand for things like casting spells. (If you choose to run it that way.)

 

[Dausuul]

A rogue could still benefit.

True, it does work for the rogue. Good idea for an assassin build.

A fighter or ranger wielding two hand crossbows could still drop the left hand crossbow and have a free hand to reload for extra attacks, I believe.

Doesn't work. Crossbow Expert says that you get the bonus action attack if you have the loaded hand crossbow in hand when you take the Attack action. If you don't have it in hand, then you don't get the bonus attack with it. If you do have it in hand, then you don't have a hand free and can't reload.

No matter how you work it, you only end up with two attacks, same as any 5th-level fighter. The only way to do three attacks is to use the Crossbow Expert loophole and make all three with one crossbow.

 

[Prism]

Or at least tell me they have explained WHY ranged two-weapon fighting needs to be strictly superior to melee two-weapon fighting? (Keep in mind that I haven't even started on the fact that the perhaps most powerful feature of all in the entire PHB is denied to dual-wielders but not to this ranged build, namely Great Weapon Master/Sharpshooter!)

As far as I can see there is no real way of doing ranged two-weapon fighting so I would say that melee two-weapon fighting is by default better. The crossbow expert feat only works with preloaded crossbows so can only easily be used once per combat unless you spend some time with a free hand reloading it which is no real use for dual wielders.

I don't really know which ranged build you are referring too as I don't think there is one

 

[redrick]

Doesn't work. Crossbow Expert says that you get the bonus action attack if you have the loaded hand crossbow in hand when you take the Attack action. If you don't have it in hand, then you don't get the bonus attack with it. If you do have it in hand, then you don't have a hand free and can't reload.

No matter how you work it, you only end up with two attacks, same as any 5th-level fighter. The only way to do three attacks is to use the Crossbow Expert loophole and make all three with one crossbow.

Couldn't you fire the first crossbow, bonus action fire the second crossbow, drop it, reload the first crossbow and fire it again as your "extra attack"? If you can move in between your attacks, I don't see why you couldn't bonus action in between your attacks.

That seems to make sense to me narratively, and, for the cost of a feat, doesn't seem to be unbalancing.

I think dual-wielding hand crossbows is supposed to be fairly niche. The fighter or ranger crossbow expert is probably better off just sticking with a heavy crossbow and taking advantage of multiple ranged 1d10 attacks per turn. Better damage than the longbow, and it can be used in close combat without disadvantage.

 

[mellored]

The main issue is crossbow expertise + hand-crossbow + shield.

Using crossbow expertise + 2 hand-crossbows is basically identical to crossbow expertise + 1 hand crossbow. It's purely a style option.

 

[Mistwell]

This is ineffective past level 5. You can't reload either crossbow without a free hand; thus, you can't get your second attack from Extra Attack if you're using two crossbows. (Also, you have to have Crossbow Expert to even try it. The two-weapon fighting rules specify melee weapons.)

I disagree, for two scenarios. As mentioned, a rogue can do this (and I had assassination in mind when I mentioned first round burst damage). Next, with the feat (and we were talking about the feat, right?) you fire both, then you drop one, then you reload the other to fire it a second time. Why wouldn't that work? Granted it's only good for the first round, which is why I said it's good for those who deal burst damage.

 

[CapnZapp]

Instead of replying individually, let me specify exactly what I would have liked to see.

Some of your replies only repeat info we already know, others go off on a tangent. Hopefully when you know what I do like it will make it easier to understand my original rant.


Three straight-forward changes:
1) The Light Crossbow being named simply Crossbow.
2) The melee-only distinction of two-weapon fighting be dropped.
3) The complete removal of the Crossbow Expert feat (see PS for details on why)

This would make the rules for crossbows MUCH more intuitive.

Suddenly my headache is lifted completely! All my concerns for the rules as they relate to crosbows go away like magic:

Hand crossbows suddenly work like you would expect them to. As light weapons you can use one in your off hand, but you don't get the Dex bonus to damage without taking the Two-Weapon Fighting weapon style, which means you can't also take the Archery style.

If you run the Ammunition property by the book, you can't actually use TWF with hand crossbows since the rules still force your other hand to be free. This does have the advantage that you can't cheese the Archery style (which isn't intended to give its bonus to both main and off hand attacks). I'm torn between throwing out that ruling and simply adding repeating crossbows to the PHB weapons.

Note that Dual Wielder does not need changing. The first part, about AC, should indeed not work when you wield a hand crossbow in one of your hands. You will have to choose between extra AC and range.


Regards,
Zapp

PS. My analysis of the Crossbow Expert feat:
- removing "loading" property: bad, since turns crossbows into pistols.
This isn't about hosing your playstyle either: it would be much preferable to add repeating crosbows to the PHB weapon list instead of doing this no-loading charade. Get a repeating crossbow, simple. Anyone else use a crossbow to make an opening shot and then drop it. Or they use a regular bow.
- removing disadvantage of ranged combat when in melee: bad, since it removes the single most important reason to have a melee weapon, it makes it impossible to stop people from going all Legolas on your arse, and it is generally unrealistic as hell. Besides, it hurts my head how this favors crossbow users over regular bow and arrow users (who need this feat just as much but can't benefit from the other two aspects).
- allowing bonus attacks as something completely different than, and utterly superior to TWF, is bad bad bad. This feature is simply not needed, once TWF works for all light weapons, melee and ranged. Besides this third part of the feat was clearly intended for the sword and crossbow guy, only that is a complete fail because of the ammo rules. You MUST have a free hand to load that crossbow, ergo the only configuration allowed is the hand crossbow plus free hand configuration.

At this point, when I have discovered that *all three* aspects of the Crossbow Expert feat are disruptive, I realized it was easier to just take away the entire feat.

 

[Jester David]

If you run the Ammunition property by the book, you can't actually use TWF with hand crossbows since the rules still force your other hand to be free. This does have the advantage that you can't cheese the Archery style (which isn't intended to give its bonus to both main and off hand attacks). I'm torn between throwing out that ruling and simply adding repeating crossbows to the PHB weapons.

Round One
Draw crossbow. Load crossbow. Draw sword. Attack with both.

Round Two
Attack with sword. Sheath sword. Load crossbow. Attack with crossbow.

Round Three
Load crossbow. Draw sword. Attack with both.

Round Four
Same as round two. Etc.

 

[Ristamar]

Round One
Draw crossbow. Load crossbow. Draw sword. Attack with both.

You'd need to Dual Wielder feat to draw both in one round. Alternatively, just keep the loaded crossbow in hand if you're expecting trouble.

 

[Prism]

Round One
Draw crossbow. Load crossbow. Draw sword. Attack with both.

Round Two
Attack with sword. Sheath sword. Load crossbow. Attack with crossbow.

Round Three
Load crossbow. Draw sword. Attack with both.

Round Four
Same as round two. Etc.

The problem is as written you cant do this. The two weapon fighting rules only apply to melee weapons. The crossbow expert feat only applies if your crossbow is preloaded as you attack with the sword. You cant load it on round two.