D&D 5E The Hidden Secret of NPC Party Members

[redrick]

Red Shirts don't need HD staying power. They're there to show up and die, hopefully advancing your pack or your torch a few feet for their trouble.

NPCs who get used as meat shields in my games will either die often (see Red Shirts) or leave/flee to find other, safer lines of work.

 

[jodyjohnson]

Red Shirts don't need HD staying power. They're there to show up and die, hopefully advancing your pack or your torch a few feet for their trouble.

NPCs who get used as meat shields in my games will either die often (see Red Shirts) or leave/flee to find other, safer lines of work.

Which adds to the statement that HD really do matter. NPCs with low HP die (just once in my campaign, not often) or are left in town, by their own decision or the party's.

But, I would disagree that you want them to die easily - that proves little narratively when the King's Elite Guard drop like flies if the party knows they only have 9 hp (2d8). When a Chasme swoops in a one-shots one with 33 hp (6d8+6) that is an entirely different indicator of monster ability.

When the threads point is "HD don't matter", it's time to quote old Ben Kenobi, "... From a certain point of view."

 

[Minigiant]

But that then makes HD don't matter if the HD serve only to be spread on the ground in thick red or black smears. A DM can handwave that.

The Dragon has no reason to attack the berseker or veteran guard over the 2-3 times more scary Player Characters. Only when the Dragon literally can't hit anyone else would it bother and that's only in super small 1st edition era dungeon hallways.

 

[jodyjohnson]

I prefer not to get too hung up on the 'red shirt' category. My NPCs, mounts, and pets might all play the role of 'red shirt' in an encounter but that doesn't make them a classic red shirt (Easy to kill and they all must die). I may want them around for a long time. They are handy though when I need to demonstrate Vorpal, Petrify and Shatter, Level Drain, or Amputate something.

I guess difficult strokes and all that.

There seems to be a huge helping of metagame going around.

My metagaming just differs.

 

[77IM]

If we're saying that HD don't correspond very well to CR, then yeah. The aforementioned hippogriffs are glass cannons -- they have two fairly respectable attacks, and relatively few HP, so their "offensive CR" is way higher than their "defensive CR."

But the reverse can happen too. Summon up a bunch of rhinos or elephants or something big and meaty and have them harass the adult red dragon from multiple angles. If there's a large group of them, they become tempting targets for breath weapons. And absorbing two breath weapon attacks is usually twice as good as absorbing just one.

Besides, fighting a big solo dragon isn't the only scenario for using hirelings. Consider fighting a bunch of drow, for example. Would you rather have 10 guards (9 hp) or 10 berserkers (36 hp)? (I might be misremembering these HP numbers, but you get the idea.) The guys with good HP can form an effective battlefield presence and at least pin down some drow for some length of time. Maybe not 4x as long, but it is still probably better.

So I agree that you can't use HD as a proxy for "overall power" in 5e. But saying "ignore HD" might be going a bit too far in the other direction.

 

[77IM]

I just looked it up, and guards have 11 hp and berserkers have a whopping 67 hp. I contend that all things being equal, 67 hp is going to make a difference in many fights. That's roughly as many hp as a typical 8th-level fighter.

 

[S'mon]

Unfortunately none of the written NPCs have any features to encourage attacks their way nor protecting allies.

So you'd really being a DM putting NPCs on the PC's side just to have other NPCs attack them for little reason just to have the first NPCs worthwhile. Extra work for little payoff.

I find plenty of value in having NPCs with the group. Narrative value - people to talk to! Drama!
Story! of course, and Simulation value - Realism! at least. But really I'd say the players do find NPCs who can fight & absorb attacks useful for overcoming challenges, too. I don't do 'encounter building', I run my 5e game like 1e, so assets on the PC side will help them overcome challenges while
somewhat reducing rewards, a choice the players can make.

 

[S'mon]

But that then makes HD don't matter if the HD serve only to be spread on the ground in thick red or black smears. A DM can handwave that.

The Dragon has no reason to attack the berseker or veteran guard over the 2-3 times more scary Player Characters. Only when the Dragon literally can't hit anyone else would it bother and that's only in super small 1st edition era dungeon hallways.

The dragon won't know enemy DPR until it's been attacked at least once. I tend to roll
randomly on round 1 to see who the enemy attacks, or spread attacks evenly if there are
lots of attackers. Also, lots of attacks do occur in 10' hallways and similar choke points.
In 5e it makes sense for PCs to seek out choke points, just like in pre-3e, and I see this a
lot - a lot of realistic battles of attrition with a narrow front rank.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

So I agree that you can't use HD as a proxy for "overall power" in 5e. But saying "ignore HD" might be going a bit too far in the other direction.

Perhaps, but the point overall is pretty valid. Other factors than HD are likely to be key - it's easy to see situations where the PCs will be dead before the high-HP NPCs are, for example.

Another factor with NPCs is morale, of course - it's unlikely many hireling or allied NPCs will "fight to the death" (though berserkers, being, y'know berserk, might - but again that's a non-HD factor), so assuming some guy with 80hp will absorb 80hp of attacks is probably wildly optimistic.

So the most efficient way to display deadliness is against against non-player characters.

It can work, though my experience is that killing NPCs this way is a good way to restart a discussion on whether NPCs should get Death Saves!