D&D 5E (2014) Crossbows and dual-wielding

[pming]

Hiya!

Did you guys just miss @DEFCON 1 's post? He pretty much nailed it in a clear and easy to understand manner.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Mistwell]

The problem is as written you cant do this. The two weapon fighting rules only apply to melee weapons. The crossbow expert feat only applies if your crossbow is preloaded as you attack with the sword. You cant load it on round two.

I disagree. Crawford has been very consistent in explaining that a bonus action triggered by an action can come at any time during the round. So assuming you have the Crossbow Expert feat (this does not involve the two weapon fighting rules) you can use a bonus action to fire a crossbow at any time during the round provided you are going to or have already triggered it using the attack action (and the feat doesn't specify ranged attack). Yes, the crossbow must be loaded, but you are free to load it once your hand is free, and your hand is free after you sheath your longsword.

I think Jester Canuck's analysis is sound. You can attack with a longsword and crossbow using the crossbow expert feat. However, you need to start the encounter with the crossbow in hand. And you can't interact with any other objects during your turn.

I suppose we should ask Crawford if it works, for clarity.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

This is ineffective past level 5. You can't reload either crossbow without a free hand; thus, you can't get your second attack from Extra Attack if you're using two crossbows. (Also, you have to have Crossbow Expert to even try it. The two-weapon fighting rules specify melee weapons.)

There really isn't a good way of dual wielding crossbows in 5E. The hand crossbow fighter build uses a single crossbow and takes advantage of a loophole in Crossbow Expert: A hand crossbow is a one-handed weapon, and Crossbow Expert doesn't specify that the hand crossbow has to be in addition to the one-handed weapon. They can be the same weapon! So you use a single hand crossbow for both the Attack action and the bonus action attack, leaving your other hand free to reload. This has the additional advantage that if you find a magic hand crossbow, you can use it for all your attacks.

Crossbow Expert does, however, specify that the weapon has to be loaded when you make your original attack. Since you've just fired your main crossbow, it's no longer loaded, therefore a strict reading of the word "when" means that you must have a second crossbow available to make your bonus action attack.

Subsequent Sage Advice rulings have cast doubt on the strict reading of "when", and if you're letting someone freely choose to Shield Bash before making their main attack it behooves the DM to allow the Crossbow Expert to decouple his bonus action from his main attack too, but the plain reading of the feat suggests that it's meant to support two-gun mojo with crossbows. Probably aiming sideways to boot.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

As an aside, the "light" tag on the hand crossbow can be used for other purposes. For example, you might rule that "light" tagged weapons are at advantage on the stealth check when you try to smuggle them under your clothes.

 

[Leatherhead]

Let me tell you about crossbows in 5e.

First of all, crossbows are garbage for anyone who gets more than one attack per turn, unless you have augmenting rules that make up for it (such as the crossbow expert feat)

Secondly, because people were going out of their minds at the thought of people using two crossbows at once, a slew of things were trashed. Such as the sling + shield style, and the actual rapier + hand x-bow style that the feat was meant to encapsulate. Yes, people knew that crossbows + shields was technically superior, but nobody actually gave a damn about that so much as pseudo-gun-slinging imagery.

Thirdly, they didn't actually do anything other than remove the ability to use an ammunition weapon in one hand, and anything else in the other. The actual rate of fire and DPR of the feat is the same with one hand crossbow as it would be with two weapons, yes that means you can fire a single crossbow an absurd number of times in a single round (10, if you stack haste and class abilities with full attack actions) Heck, it isn't even triggered by the same mechanic that grants melee dual wielding, so it doesn't follow the same damage penalty rules.

As for your questions:
Yes, the tags on the weapons were clearly meant to mean something, specifically that rapier+hand crossbow style that Drow are famous for, but in the end they backed out of it and many things were hosed as collateral damage.

Two Weapon Melee fighting is considered to be a hot mess right now. The feats are known to be lacking compared to other feats. But at least the cost of entry is "free" at the lowest level, which counts for something if you are playing a Rogue who has advantage from flanking or something similar. This is one of the lesser reasons why people are dissatisfied with the Ranger (but the Beastmaster part is the majority of it)

There is no such thing as Two Weapon Ranged fighting. Not even thrown weapons work that way.

 

[Prism]

I disagree. Crawford has been very consistent in explaining that a bonus action triggered by an action can come at any time during the round. So assuming you have the Crossbow Expert feat (this does not involve the two weapon fighting rules) you can use a bonus action to fire a crossbow at any time during the round provided you are going to or have already triggered it using the attack action (and the feat doesn't specify ranged attack). Yes, the crossbow must be loaded, but you are free to load it once your hand is free, and your hand is free after you sheath your longsword.

I think Jester Canuck's analysis is sound. You can attack with a longsword and crossbow using the crossbow expert feat. However, you need to start the encounter with the crossbow in hand. And you can't interact with any other objects during your turn.

I suppose we should ask Crawford if it works, for clarity.

Its not that you shouldn't be able to use the bonus action whenever you like - I agree that you should. Its just that the crossbow expert feat requires it to be already loaded, which I'm reading that you can't, in this specific case load it during the bonus action as you shoot. So how do you load it? The rules only allow you to load a crossbow as you attack with it and in this case that's specifically not allowed (or so it seems to suggest). Its not a free action which you can just do at some point during the round in preparation. I think many DMs would allow an interaction to load a crossbow during your action and have a free hand, but that would stop you also drawing and sheathing a sword.

I don't think the intention if this feat is to allow regular use of the free bonus attack. Take away the word 'loaded' in the feat and this issue all goes away. However that makes this feat a bit strong I believe. Having an extra, full stat attack every round that can be used in melee and at range would be very good.

 

[Azurewraith]

actual rapier + hand x-bow style that the feat was meant to encapsulate.

We took one look at the feat and among us ruled this is what it was meant for so we immediately decided you could use a leather strap or just skill to load it with an object in your other hand that was light. We then consulted pirate john(a friend of ours who has a small armory in his house) and practiced doing this and it wasn't that difficult tbh yes where not fighting anyone but where also not surviving being hit by a ball of fire or falling 30ft.

 

[CapnZapp]

Let me tell you about crossbows in 5e.

Seems you and me are on the same page, Leatherhead. I feel your pain.

 

[CapnZapp]

Hiya!

Did you guys just miss @DEFCON 1 's post? He pretty much nailed it in a clear and easy to understand manner.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

If you are referring to me, yes I read his post (assuming you talk about post #5 in this thread).

However, I don't see what he nailed at all. First he simply reiterates the rules. But I already know they work in absurd and deeply unsatisfying ways!

Then he embarks down the same road Canuck travels, with visions of picking up and dropping and sheathing weapons in an unholy mess; but let me tell you that for me that is not D&D, that is a hellish nightmare.

So let us talk about something else instead!

Let me ask what you, Paul, think about the rules as written and their consequences (intended or not)?

Then, if you want, I would be happy to hear your opinion on my proposed fixes?

 

[jodyjohnson]

Crossbow Expert is on my house rule list so I don't entirely disagree with Cap.

My preference is add back Deadly Strike as a general alternate for Extra Attack (available to all Extra Attack classes) that let you roll multiple weapon dice instead of multiple attacks. (Basically a free Vital Strike from Pathfinder)

Then not worry about the Loading property limitation (and potentially save ammo). It also brings thrown weapons closer to parity.

I'd also heavily nerf GWM and SS to put all the weapon styles back in the same ballpark and bring the feats into parity with a +2 Stat boost.