D&D 5E Grapple in 5e

[designbot]

This is your friend:

The Grappler's Manual

 

[ExploderWizard]

Correct. So if it weren't for the second clause, you could Magic Missile a target under Sanctuary.

You can't target the warded creature with an "attack or harmful spell." But you could grapple it, or push it, or pour oil on the ground and light it on fire. It doesn't make you invincible, it just forecloses the most direct options for hurting you.

Since grapple IS an attack (PHB p 195), and shoving IS an attack (PHB p195 those options aren't available. AOE effects and the like will still work.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Grapple is an attack it just doesn't use a standard attack roll. If it wasn't an attack then it wouldn't require the attack action.

"Attack" is a technical term in 5E, including in spell descriptions. PHB 194:

If there's ever any question whether something you're doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack.

Opportunity attack with dagger: attack roll. Is an attack. Blocked by Sanctuary, or ends Sanctuary if the warded creature does it.
Casting Eldritch Blast: attack roll. Is an attack. Blocked by Sanctuary, or ends Sanctuary if the warded creature does it.
Casting Magic Missile: no roll. Not an attack but is a harmful spell. Blocked by Sanctuary, or ends Sanctuary if the warded creature does it, except technically if you cast it on an ally (e.g. to wake them up from Hypnotic Pattern or end a Domination).
Grappling: opposed skill check. Not an attack. Ignores Sanctuary completely in both directions.
Intimidating: opposed skill check. Not an attack. Ignores Sanctuary completely in both directions.

Whether something is an attack or not has nothing to do with whether it happens during an Attack action, a reaction, a bonus action, a Cast a Spell action, or something else.

If "attack" in the description of Sanctuary were intended to be construed loosely, the restriction about not being able to cast spells that affect enemy creatures would be redundant, no? Because those spells would already count as "attacks" under the loose constriction. It seems clear that "attack" is being used with the technical meaning, which means PHB 194 applies.

 

[ExploderWizard]

This is your friend:

The Grappler's Manual

There is some good stuff in there and also some stuff that just doesn't actually work when the game is adjudicated by a living referee with common sense.

PHB 194:



Opportunity attack with dagger: attack roll. Is an attack. Blocked by Sanctuary, or ends Sanctuary if the warded creature does it.
Casting Eldritch Blast: attack roll. Is an attack. Is an attack. Blocked by Sanctuary, or ends Sanctuary if the warded creature does it.
Casting Magic Missile: no roll. Not an attack but is a harmful spell. Blocked by Sanctuary, or ends Sanctuary if the warded creature does it, except technically if you cast it on an ally (e.g. to wake them up from Hypnotic Pattern or end a Domination).
Grappling: opposed skill check. Not an attack. Ignores Sanctuary completely in both directions.
Intimidating: opposed skill check. Not an attack. Ignores Sanctuary completely in both directions.

Whether something is an attack or not has nothing to do with whether it happens during an Attack action, a reaction, a bonus action, a Cast a Spell action, or something else.

PHB 195:

When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it,you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a grapple.

PHB 195:

Using the Attack action,you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature,either to knock it prone or push it away from you.

These actions are specifically called out as melee attacks therefore whether they are counted as attacks is not in doubt.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Since grapple IS an attack (PHB p 195), and shoving IS an attack (PHB p195 those options aren't available. AOE effects and the like will still work.

Sure, they're a special kind of attack, different from a regular attack, and they're only available when you're Attacking instead of e.g. Dodging. But do they "count as" attacks from a game jargon standpoint? PHB 194 says no. Since Sanctuary is written against game jargon, that matters.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Sure, they're a special kind of attack, different from a regular attack, and they're only available when you're Attacking instead of e.g. Dodging. But do they "count as" attacks from a game jargon standpoint? PHB 194 says no. Since Sanctuary is written against game jargon, that matters.

If game jargon is the game and you are touting p 194 (even though the doubt is removed on p 195), then I bring your attention to PHB p7:

SPECIFIC BEATS GENERAL

Remember this: If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins.

p 194 is a general rule about how to classify an action that may or may not be considered an attack. The classification on p195 is a specific exception to an attack requiring a standard attack roll.


As always if you desire that grappling be this super effective broken combat tactic due to word games, go ahead and rule as you please.

 

[Ristamar]

So it's a special kind of attack that you can only do when you're attacking but it's not actually an attack that would proc Sanctuary?

Sure...

IIRC, the text on p. 194 you're leaning on isn't mutually exclusive. All attack rolls are attacks, but not all attacks require attack rolls.

 

[abirdcall]

Sure, they're a special kind of attack, different from a regular attack, and they're only available when you're Attacking instead of e.g. Dodging. But do they "count as" attacks from a game jargon standpoint? PHB 194 says no. Since Sanctuary is written against game jargon, that matters.

This would be quite the stretch of rules-lawyering even for 3e or 4e.

Reminds me of children who wave their hands at other children yelling "I'm not touching you, I'm not touching you!" as though somehow that makes their behaviour okay.

Only in this case, you are specifically actually grabbing or hitting the other character.

 

[aramis erak]

"Attack" is a technical term in 5E, including in spell descriptions. PHB 194:



Opportunity attack with dagger: attack roll. Is an attack. Blocked by Sanctuary, or ends Sanctuary if the warded creature does it.
Casting Eldritch Blast: attack roll. Is an attack. Blocked by Sanctuary, or ends Sanctuary if the warded creature does it.
Casting Magic Missile: no roll. Not an attack but is a harmful spell. Blocked by Sanctuary, or ends Sanctuary if the warded creature does it, except technically if you cast it on an ally (e.g. to wake them up from Hypnotic Pattern or end a Domination).
Grappling: opposed skill check. Not an attack. Ignores Sanctuary completely in both directions.
Intimidating: opposed skill check. Not an attack. Ignores Sanctuary completely in both directions.

Whether something is an attack or not has nothing to do with whether it happens during an Attack action, a reaction, a bonus action, a Cast a Spell action, or something else.

If "attack" in the description of Sanctuary were intended to be construed loosely, the restriction about not being able to cast spells that affect enemy creatures would be redundant, no? Because those spells would already count as "attacks" under the loose constriction. It seems clear that "attack" is being used with the technical meaning, which means PHB 194 applies.

Grappling is defined in rules as a special melee attack. PHB 195, says "When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a grapple."
So is shoving, same wording, same page, next subsection, reads, "Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you."

Moving a grappled creature into a harmful AOE while you have them grappled isn't an attack - it's just movement...

 

[77IM]

If there's ever any question whether something you're doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack.

By a strictly logical interpretation, this statement has no bearing on whether or not grappling or magic missile are attacks. It classifies actions where you are making at attack roll, but doesn't preclude actions without attack rolls from being attacks also.