Christian Persecution vs Persecuted Christians

[Kramodlog]

It's now a privilege to not be a victim?!

If you have a word or concept that won't make you use interrobangs, feel free to share.

 

[Maxperson]

What I said is that odds favor men, white people, heterosexuals, cisgender people... And you agree that this, so I'm not sure what your issue is. If you want to say privilege is not an ideal word or concept, I agreed with that in an earlier post. Do you have a better word to suggest to discribe real social phenomenoms?

Culture. Most of what is described are the result of the cultures of the minority groups. The black and hispanic cultures result in far more drop outs than the white culture. As a result, those communities are far poorer and have more of those young people become involved in crime. That paints a negative picture to other cultures about those groups. Those cultures need to be altered. If they were and that negative picture were to be erased, "white privilege" would go with it. Why? Because it isn't that being white gives me some sort of advantage over the baseline. It's that the negative image gives those cultures a disadvantage. Erase that disadvantage and things should equal out.

Because the post that started the conversation did exclusively focus on skin color. It was, surprisingly, about privileges another poster has. Those can include skin color, but also gender, sexual orientation, gender identity... http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...tians/page36&p=6740422&viewfull=1#post6740422

There are slightly different issues that affect the different categories listed here. Right now I'm discussing "white privilege", and the things that go into why the different races are treated differently don't line up perfectly with the other categories, so I'm not addressing them right now. Perhaps a different thread would be good for those.

 

[Ryujin]

Less likely? Sure. A privilege? No. A privilege is something others deliberately grant you. Nor are any of those things you mentioned limited to white people, so it's not even something special to them. Not once in my life have I been pulled aside by a white conspiracy and told to extend privileges like these to other white people. Nor have I heard mention of it from any of my white friends.

Why would I focus on other things in a conversation about white privilege?

A 'privilege' is something that you receive, over and above what is generally available. It need not be consciously given, in order to be privilege. In fact I would argue the term "white privilege" refers to the institutionalized conscious AND unconscious boons granted to whites, by society. If you can compare statistics for people of different race and/or ethnic origin who are of the same general socio-economic strata and see different results in day-to-day life, then you can demonstrate that this privilege exists. It seems to me that this has been rather convincingly done.

 

[Maxperson]

A 'privilege' is something that you receive, over and above what is generally available. It need not be consciously given, in order to be privilege. In fact I would argue the term "white privilege" refers to the institutionalized conscious AND unconscious boons granted to whites, by society. If you can compare statistics for people of different race and/or ethnic origin who are of the same general socio-economic strata and see different results in day-to-day life, then you can demonstrate that this privilege exists. It seems to me that this has been rather convincingly done.

I'm arguing that I don't receive anything over and above the baseline. As proof of that, there are other cultures/races that receive what I do. The remaining cultures have been set up due to a variety of factors, racism being one of them, so that they receive less than the baseline. I don't receive more. All that the statistics show is that there is a disparity. They don't show that I receive more than the baseline due to my color. If I don't get more than the baseline, there is no privilege.

Now, if you can show that the minority cultures are the baseline, getting what they are supposed to be getting and that I'm getting more than that due to my color, THEN we have some sort of white privilege happening.

 

[Umbran]

Less likely? Sure. A privilege? No. A privilege is something others deliberately grant you.

Not necessarily, but I am not sure it is worth having that argument. By digging into details of definition, we misdirect into missing the point.

The point is that, statistically speaking, some groups have it easier than others. You can call this by different names, but names have power, so what name you choose changes how you think about it.

You can speak about "cultural racial and sexist bias", for example, but that puts the focus on the victims of the bias. It can be a real help, instead, to put the focus on those who are *not* selected against, and instead look at those who are on the positive side of that bias.

 

[Ovinomancer]

If you have a word or concept that won't make you use interrobangs, feel free to share.

So sorry, I didn't see your feelings there when I interrobanged. Please allow me to rephrase:

It's now a privilege to not be a victim?

 

[Ryujin]

I'm arguing that I don't receive anything over and above the baseline. As proof of that, there are other cultures/races that receive what I do. The remaining cultures have been set up due to a variety of factors, racism being one of them, so that they receive less than the baseline. I don't receive more. All that the statistics show is that there is a disparity. They don't show that I receive more than the baseline due to my color. If I don't get more than the baseline, there is no privilege.

Now, if you can show that the minority cultures are the baseline, getting what they are supposed to be getting and that I'm getting more than that due to my color, THEN we have some sort of white privilege happening.

What you receive, personally, is immaterial to the debate. Just as I stated to Dannyalcatraz your personal experience, your 'anecdotal evidence', is of virtually zero import to the debate. This is something that can be clearly shown to exist, whatever the root cause may be, through straight statistical comparison.

 

[WayneLigon]

Now, if you can show that the minority cultures are the baseline, getting what they are supposed to be getting and that I'm getting more than that due to my color, THEN we have some sort of white privilege happening.

I'd say that the very fact that you consider your experience to BE the 'baseline' is evidence of white privilege.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Not necessarily, but I am not sure it is worth having that argument. By digging into details of definition, we misdirect into missing the point.

The point is that, statistically speaking, some groups have it easier than others. You can call this by different names, but names have power, so what name you choose changes how you think about it.

You can speak about "cultural racial and sexist bias", for example, but that puts the focus on the victims of the bias. It can be a real help, instead, to put the focus on those who are *not* selected against, and instead look at those who are on the positive side of that bias.

I would phrase that as 'some groups have it worse than others.' The issue isn't that whites get more*, it's that others get less. The goal is to have everyone get what whites get, not that whites drop down to the baseline that others have. In that sense, speaking of privilege is silly, you need to speak directly to the issues that prevent others from obtaining the baseline: racism, cultural assumptions, etc. Choosing to phrase the issue in terms of the baseline having privilege that they need to feel guilty over having and then give up to the less fortunate doesn't address the fundamental issues facing some minority groups. It's grist for those that wish to indulge their White Guilt.

*accepting this premise arguendo

 

[Ovinomancer]

I'd say that the very fact that you consider your experience to BE the 'baseline' is evidence of white privilege.

And that's another place to rest the case that you cannot argue against the theory (as used) if you are part of the designated privileged class. The only way to be considered as having legitimate input is only if you accept your place within the theory -- which means you can't argue that your place isn't correct.