D&D 5E Persuade, Intimidate, and Deceive used vs. PCs

[iserith]

I wonder if you have a problem with something from tomorrows game... when they finish the hobgoblin quest they plan to go to the dark citadel... a dungeon with a dark past. One PC is a warlock, I prepared special flavor text for him about it giving him the heebee jeebies and it feeling like an ice ball formed in his belly...

now that is also a clue to what is going on in the game... do you think telling him that is 'robbing his agency'?

I think it's possible to describe the environment in a way that resonates with the player and also isn't telling him or her that the character has the "heebie-jeebies." I'd prefer that to what you are suggesting.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I think it's possible to describe the environment in a way that resonates with the player and also isn't telling him or her that the character has the "heebie-jeebies." I'd prefer that to what you are suggesting.

except in this case, the clue is that only the warlock player is getting that feeling, to everyone else it's just another dungeon... how do I describe it so it effects 1 PC differently then others? if you can come up with something I will try it and let you know...


in this game the big bad is a demon/devil lord (in this world demons and devils are almost interchangeable) that birthed itself onto the prime plane 3,000 years ago to get around a ban on planer travel. It was born as a Tannurk (basicly half orc half tiefling) with some power that it built as it regained it's demonic god like power... but in dueing so he screwed himself... being mortal meant a ticket to this world, but also meant he could die. So he made himself a vampire... now immortal with a large fraction of his power as a demonic lord he set out to rule the world... and failed. A combined good/neutral/evil force of just about everyone in the world back then put him down... but they couldn't kill him... so the imprisoned him and used the stars themselves as locks.

for 3k years he has tried to break free. Now he has agents out in the world he can communicate with and is tearing down guards and ward and feeding him power. Soon he will break free and this time nothing will stand in his way...

BUT the PCs are totally stoping his cults and stuff and setting him back. 1 PC (the warlock in question) is a bit of an issue... his pact is with this entity... and everyone he kills is a soul sent to empower him. This is a double edged sword... and a tight rope the PCs have to walk.

those hebe geebes are the power inside him reacting to the place...


edit... so how do I do this?

 

[Sunseeker]

This might be the crux of it.

I don't consider the DM to be a player. The DM does not get XP, the DM does not level up. The DM doesn't win. The DM doesn't lose.

The DM is the "game-world runner", nothing happens in the game-world unless the DM makes it happen. The dice are there to assist the DM in running the game-world and responding fairly to player actions. The players are the agents of change in the game world - which reacts to their actions (through the DM).

But the DM isn't a machine either. They have feelings, thoughts, they can enjoy or not enjoy a session. A DM is just as capable as having fun at the table as everyone else, this sounds less like what you feel the DMs position is and more what you feel the game is about. The DM can't "win", well, this really boils down to a discussion of what people consider "winning at D&D."

 

[robus]

But the DM isn't a machine either. They have feelings, thoughts, they can enjoy or not enjoy a session. A DM is just as capable as having fun at the table as everyone else, this sounds less like what you feel the DMs position is and more what you feel the game is about. The DM can't "win", well, this really boils down to a discussion of what people consider "winning at D&D."

Absolutely - I have a tremendous time DMing. But I'm not a "player" in the D&D sense of the term. I don't get to "act" like the players get to "act". I get to set the scene and I get to "react" to their actions.

 

[Shirebrok]

IMO, a nice rule of thumb is that it's okay to describe sensory information (sight, hearing, taste, touch, smell), but emotions are off-limits.

So, I wouldn't say somebody has the "heebie-jeebies". I'd make that person feel them through sensory information.

"A deep chill runs through your spine as you approach the gate."
"You can see something out of the corner of your eye, right at the very edge of your peripheral vision, but it disappears whenever you turn to look at it."
"A loud pulse, not unlike that of a heartbeat, rings in your ears when you pull the lever."
And so on...

A player picking up on these clues may start to act frightened, or maybe he or she will start investigating these strange occurrences. Maybe both.
My point is that, IMO, just "having the heebie-jeebies" doesn't provide that much useful information. Providing sensory info, on the other hand, is better at telegraphing specific events and is something that the players can work with. PUll it off, and it might be something of a puzzle they can solve, and figuring out what exactly is going on can help them later in the dungeon.

 

[Ovinomancer]

This might be the crux of it.

I don't consider the DM to be a player. The DM does not get XP, the DM does not level up. The DM doesn't win. The DM doesn't lose.

The DM is the "game-world runner", nothing happens in the game-world unless the DM makes it happen. The dice are there to assist the DM in running the game-world and responding fairly to player actions. The players are the agents of change in the game world - which reacts to their actions (through the DM).

What a horrible thing it must be to not get to have any part in the game your friends are playing, instead being relegated to nothing more than the living game board.

Me, when I sit down to take a role in a game I share with my friends, at least consider myself to be playing no matter what role I take. I have no interest in a game I can't play.

 

[Ovinomancer]

IMO, a nice rule of thumb is that it's okay to describe sensory information (sight, hearing, taste, touch, smell), but emotions are off-limits.

So, I wouldn't say somebody has the "heebie-jeebies". I'd make that person feel them through sensory information.

"A deep chill runs through your spine as you approach the gate."
"You can see something out of the corner of your eye, right at the very edge of your peripheral vision, but it disappears whenever you turn to look at it."
"A loud pulse, not unlike that of a heartbeat, rings in your ears when you pull the lever."
And so on...

A player picking up on these clues may start to act frightened, or maybe he or she will start investigating these strange occurrences. Maybe both.
My point is that, IMO, just "having the heebie-jeebies" doesn't provide that much useful information. Providing sensory info, on the other hand, is better at telegraphing specific events and is something that the players can work with. PUll it off, and it might be something of a puzzle they can solve, and figuring out what exactly is going on can help them later in the dungeon.

What the functional difference? I get that you've done a good job of 'playing Jeopardy' there, but it's the same end result.

 

[iserith]

except in this case, the clue is that only the warlock player is getting that feeling, to everyone else it's just another dungeon... how do I describe it so it effects 1 PC differently then others? if you can come up with something I will try it and let you know...


in this game the big bad is a demon/devil lord (in this world demons and devils are almost interchangeable) that birthed itself onto the prime plane 3,000 years ago to get around a ban on planer travel. It was born as a Tannurk (basicly half orc half tiefling) with some power that it built as it regained it's demonic god like power... but in dueing so he screwed himself... being mortal meant a ticket to this world, but also meant he could die. So he made himself a vampire... now immortal with a large fraction of his power as a demonic lord he set out to rule the world... and failed. A combined good/neutral/evil force of just about everyone in the world back then put him down... but they couldn't kill him... so the imprisoned him and used the stars themselves as locks.

for 3k years he has tried to break free. Now he has agents out in the world he can communicate with and is tearing down guards and ward and feeding him power. Soon he will break free and this time nothing will stand in his way...

BUT the PCs are totally stoping his cults and stuff and setting him back. 1 PC (the warlock in question) is a bit of an issue... his pact is with this entity... and everyone he kills is a soul sent to empower him. This is a double edged sword... and a tight rope the PCs have to walk.

those hebe geebes are the power inside him reacting to the place...


edit... so how do I do this?

Based on what you're saying about what the party has done so far, how the warlock feels about this seems to be established - he doesn't care enough to stop his friends from thwarting his patron's agenda. I see no reason to tell the warlock's player that his or her character should feel differently.

If, however, clearing out this dungeon or whatever will be the straw that breaks the camel's back and will result in some kind of consequence for the warlock specifically, then I'd just make that clear to the warlock via a vision or omen of impending doom for his transgressions or direct intervention by a proxy of the patron.

 

[robus]

What a horrible thing it must be to not get to have any part in the game your friends are playing, instead being relegated to nothing more than the living game board.

Me, when I sit down to take a role in a game I share with my friends, at least consider myself to be playing no matter what role I take. I have no interest in a game I can't play.

When I say player - I, of course, mean a D&D player - as in the one referred to in the "Player's Handbook" vs the "DM Guide".

And with that I'm dropping out of this discussion - when we can't even agree on the roles in the game it seems a bit pointless.

 

[iserith]

And with that I'm dropping out of this discussion - when we can't even agree on the roles in the game it seems a bit pointless.

This is pretty much where it breaks down in my view, among other issues - who gets to do and say what in the basic conversation of the game, according to the roles defined by the rules of that game.

Thanks for jumping in to raise some good points.