D&D 5E Do Classes Have Concrete Meaning In Your Game?

Are Classes Concrete Things In Your Game?


There's a conceptual disconnect here that we're just not bridging. I don't know if it's the medium of text, or just a completely different way of thinking about the topic. But I feel like at this point we're getting into "But it's X!" vs. "But it's Y!" and I don't see the twain ever meeting.

So I think I'm going to declare the "Different Playstyles" and "Agree to Disagree" achievements unlocked and call it good.
It was said earlier that is not the game that determines how concrete class or race are, but the setting. That seems to jive well with Banana and you (and me). We each have a tolerance to what's acceptable in our settings. Ie no point in rigidly defining the setting as much as, apparently, Banana does, but as you note, that's just a playstyle.
 

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I am not okay with someone taking paladin levels without swearing a sacred oath. I am okay with someone following the Purple Dragon Knight subclass as part a bandit leader instead of a knight. I am not okay with someone trying to be a wizard without a spellbook. I am okay with someone using a rogue to model an alchemist. I'm okay with non-elf bladesingers (its an eldritch knight from the wizard instead of fighter side).

A while back, someone tried to explain that they had a concept for a "monk" that used holy rages to fly into battle and attack the enemies, modeled through the Barbarian class. I'm okay with this, especially since I feel like that is exactly what the Totem Barbarian is attempting to acomplish. I find it rather amusing that there's any discussion over the concept, considering that's something I think the Barbarian class is meant to cover in the first place, no refluffing required. The only part of barbarian the concept doesn't fully jive with is that barbarians are traditionally associated with being dismissive of civilization (which is odd, because civilization makes the alcohol that barbarians are usually fond of as well).

In general, I consider classes to be archetypes. There's lots of variations you can achieve with those archetypes, especially if you're allowing deliberate subversion of the archetype. I don't like completely throwing out the archetype all together.
 

So much easier to say "My character is a monk who left the monastery to become a high-powered magical spy for the Crown." That's a character narrative with some roots! You've got at least two organizations you're linked to as a character (which means at least two evil plots that their enemies are in the process of performing), an interesting conflict between them (which gives me a third narrative with some deep character resonance: monastery vs. crown), and all sorts of motive to go do awesome things.

I'll go one easier: "The Royal Order of the Shadow are elite members of the King's intelligence network who learned long ago ancient secrets of unarmed combat and mystical training from a defector sensi in exchange for sparing his life, taught a select few the techniques of shadow. The secrets are still only taught to an elite few, who embrace the tenants of the Way of Shadow, but do not hold its religious or ethical ideals. Instead, they swear unyielding allegiance to the crown and king, willing to do anything to further his aims."

There: an elite division of monks, who appropriate secrets from a monastic order long ago, now use said secrets to defend the crown. They don't wear robes or shave their heads, but they do learn "monk" techniques and have corrupted whatever mystical tenants of the original monk-teachings to fit their own ideals over the years. So you get secular, "westernized" monks serving a government (and only allowed one subtype: shadow) having long ago gained the knowledge from some other "traditional" source and then adapted it.

Again, you have all the monk techniques/powers, your fighting style is similar, but your character's outlook is very different.
 

http://biblehub.com/genesis/27-27.htm

Not one "laying on of hands" in any translation. Could wikipedia be wrong?! *eek*

No, but the interpretation has changed.

Originally, the Christian idea of "Laying on of Hands" was to transfer the Holy Spirit from faithful to others (Acts 6:5-6). Its still used today as part of the Confirmation and Holy Orders rites, as well as Prayers for the Sick/Dead.

At some point, the idea of Laying of Hands mixed with ideas of Faith Healers (those who believed Jesus could channel miracles through the faithful and remove illness) and over time, the ritual was used to heal the sick and injured via faith alone. The tradition still carries on, depending on the denomination (Baptist faith healers believe to channel God's miracles through them, while the Pope will touch a sick person to transfer the Holy Spirit to them and give them God's blessing).

Of course, this is just a Christian view of the practice; Jews have their own variant (a blessing of authority in the Tanahk) and Fatih Healers across the world have "channeled healing energy via touch" in the forms of Ki, Chakra, Prana, and others.
 

What's with ''Lemon Curry'' being in every poll :confused:

On topic, I never let mechanics have any particular meaning in my game. They are just metagame models to represent how characters work and interact with the world.
 



You misunderstood: I meant that people totally do what you described, they treat "race" purely as a set of mechanics. Hence my example of a character who was, in the fiction, a Dwarf...but who was, in the mechanics, an Earthsoul Genasi. People DO treat race as a purely metagame construct.

Well, OK. But it happens a lot less frequently than with class, because players' underlying assumptions about the two typically differ.

My point was that, IMO, 5e made a mistake in making the half-elf so similar to its parents. 4e actually gave the distinction meaning and significance: there are specific, discernible things that half-elves (Dilettante) and half-orcs (Furious Assault) can do that none of elves, orcs, or humans can do.

But "half-elves" and "half-orcs" have been labeled as 'races' since AD&D. And in 5e, half-orcs have the "Relentless Endurance" and "Savage Attacks" features that neither humans nor orcs have.

So the height difference between humans and halflings is socially constructed? The ability to breathe elements is an ascribed status? Having horns and a tail is purely the result of people labelling other people and nothing else? Living for 700 years or more, rather than 60-80 years, is a sociological fact, and not in any way a biological one?

Height =/= race. Masai are tall, and pygmies are short. They are both human, and according to most common racial classifications, they belong to the same racial group. So the fact that height is a heritable trait doesn't make it a racial trait. Horns and longevity aren't necessarily different from height. Tieflings can still be regarded as humans whose ancestors spent a little too much time hanging with Asmodeus. Elves - humans with preternaturally long lilfespans extended through magic (e.g. the sorcerer Dallben in Lloyd Alexander's Chronicles of Prydain; he's 300 years old, but is nowhere identified as a member of a different race. Not clear what would happen to his children). If you look at Tolkien, who inspired the in-game conceptualization of elves, being an elf or a human is, to an extent, a choice (Elrond, Elros, Arwen). And those part-elves who choose to be human have very long lifespans for generations (Numenorians, Arwen, even Aragorn, who is a descendant of the Numenorians, lives far into his second century, but is regarded as human.

Correct: because, between all IRL groups of humans, the biggest difference IS culture, at least from a D&D perspective. The difference between dwarves and elves, or gnomes and dragonborn, or any other pair of races, absolutely includes culture, I don't question that. But if you don't go for "mechanics are just mechanics, you put whatever flavor you want onto them," then there's some level of "mechanics have meaning," aka race exists in some concrete sense. It's more than JUST culture.

You can identify race on the basis of visible characteristics, or you can not. IRL, many people define distinct races within the human species, and there is no reason why the same kinds of definition cannot occur in D&D worlds. In fact, as I've shown above, half-elves, half-orcs, and tieflings are arguably essentially humans who are defined as distinct races. Dragonborn sorcerers, who are descended from dragons, are not defined as a distinct race. The reasons for these divergent definitions are sociocultural.

As for the mechanics are just mechanics, you put whatever flavor you want - I'm just saying that if you are so inclined, you can say that about race no less than class (a lot of people here are making the latter claim, but rejecting the former). Personally, I'm relatively OK with races as they work in-game. I'm just making the comparison to show that if you're being consistent, you should accept both propositions equally.

EDIT: I meant Draconic bloodline sorcerers, obviously, no Dragonborn.
 
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So you're cool with Garruk, the hill dwarf fighter with a greatsword and chainmail I refluffed as a human rogue with two shortswords and leather armor?

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...In-Your-Game&p=6762587&viewfull=1#post6762587

Before answering, I'll say that, as I pointed out in my post, mechanics are just models to represent how characters work. That was to say that, for example, in-universe people won't see a fighter and a rogue with labels on their foreheads that tell what they are, and the character won't be called ''fighter'' and ''rogue''. People will see two individuals who can only fight in a ''mundane'' way, but use different tactics and approaches. if you make a character saying that they were trained in a certain way, but then pick mechanical stuff that they can't do, I will not be fine with it.

That said, if you wanted to make a fighter and RP him (refluff) as a rougue, I'd be fine with it. I could also allow the use of dwarven stats to represent a human, since (according to your description of Garruk) they seem to be fitting, but you would have to come up with an explanation for darkvision. I would still use the normal human ages table, though.
 

So you're cool with Garruk, the hill dwarf fighter with a greatsword and chainmail I refluffed as a human rogue with two shortswords and leather armor?

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...In-Your-Game&p=6762587&viewfull=1#post6762587

I'm pretty middle of the road about this topic and about customization and homebrew options...but I don't really think I'd allow that level of alteration. You changed 100% of the attributes. At that point, it's a question of why you're even starting off with the hill dwarf fighter if what you really want to play is a human rogue?

Taking a two handed weapon and reskinning it as two singlehanded weapons bypasses the restrictions on two weapon fighting. As a rogue, it can be a big decision to decide if you want to use your bonus action for an offhand attack or to use the cunning action feature to get to a safe distance. Your refluff removes that tactical decision, allowing you to inflict more damage and still have your bonus action. Same thing for a fighter...do you want to use second wind or an offhand attack? No worries, this guy can do both!

The option to weild two short swords already exists in the game, so your refluff is not an attempt to reflect an option that doesn't exist, it's an attempt to bypass the inherent limitations of that option. Anyone else who plays a dual weilder will be at a disadvantage to your character, and that's a no-no for me.

It's a maximization not a customization. Make a dual weilder if that's what you want.

Edited to add: I forget if your original post was serious, or if you were using it to make a point. Buif a player in my game came to me with that approach, this is how I would handle it.
 
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