D&D 5E I don't think Wizards is looking at the whole picture.

[Corpsetaker]

This is a bit of a reflection of the thread that Morrus started in where I would like to focus more on if Wizards is going to be using these surveys to drive their production plan then they need to look at at the whole picture instead of these self fulfilling prophecies.

Let's break a few things down.

1: Percentage of a percentage - The stats Chris Perkins used is comprised of people who actually took the survey a few years ago. Now what this leads to is a percentage of a percentage which can give you something totally different when using something more accurate.

2: Asking the right questions - Now in my own place of work, I have experience with this. Survey questions are done strategically. They are never just "what do you want?" or "what can we do to make your experience better?" They need to stop asking leading questions.

3: Update the surveys - Put out a new survey asking the right questions around other campaign settings.

4: Introduce other settings to new players - Well there is supposedly tons of new players so why not pitch to them the idea that there are other campaign settings out there and see what they say?

5: Converting the old stuff - I would say a lot of people don't convert the old stuff because it takes to long or they just don't feel like doing it. I know they point people to Drivethru but for various reasons it's not always ideal.

6: Time - This goes along with the conversion part because a lot of us work or go to school so we don't have the time to convert and make up everything.

7: Wizards needs to define their interpretation of "homebrew" - I have a Dragonlance game that takes place pre-war of the lance so that could classify as "homebrew". Same goes with any other campaign setting used. This can cover a broad range.

8: Stop pushing the corporate agenda - Let's step back a moment and use Chris Perkins' figures in this exercise. They show that the majority of people homebrew. So why are still trying to focus on story, story, story, set in the Forgotten Realms when what people really want are more setting neutral tools and options to use in their homebrew?

9: Rules that people like - This is a big one for me. I have seen some people talk about 4th edition FR, Eberron and Dark Sun and out of all three FR sold the best. Well it could be the fact that 4th edition wasn't a widely popular ruleset so if you don't like the rules why would you buy content for it? If you introduce a popular ruleset, which they have here, then you would see people buying more material for it.

10: Just be honest - I know this is the toughest one of all but just be honest. If your goal is to maximize profits buy lowering your overhead just to keep table top D&D afloat to make way for more non table top stuff then just say it. If I know that it's not about what's best for the game and really what's best for your pockets then I will know and can move on to something else.

These are just my opinions of course. I would like to believe different but there are just too many similarities and red flags going up for me to believe any different.

 

[DEFCON 1]

9: Just be honest - I know this is the toughest one of all but just be honest. If your goal is to maximize profits buy lowering your overhead just to keep table top D&D afloat to make way for more non table top stuff then just say it. If I know that it's not about what's best for the game and really what's best for your pockets then I will know and can move on to something else.

The person who is really not being honest right here is You. To yourself.

You know exactly what WotC is doing and have been railing against them for it this entire time. And yet you refuse to quit. You keep posting over and over and over how they don't know what they know and that what you want is a better course, and if they keep it up, you're going to move on.

If you were truly honest with yourself... you either would have moved on ALREADY... or you would finally admit that you just have to play D&D regardless of how you feel about how it's being presented.

Don't treat the rest of us like we're stupid. We know you want to play D&D. Otherwise, you wouldn't keep complaining about what parts of it you don't like. If you truly didn't want to play it in this fashion, you would have put up or shut up already. But you haven't.

So just stop trying to convince the rest of us. Convince yourself first.

 

[delericho]

Is there anything that we could say that could convince you otherwise?

 

[Jester David]

1: Percentage of a percentage - The stats Chris Perkins used is comprised of people who actually took the survey a few years ago. Now what this leads to is a percentage of a percentage which can give you something totally different when using something more accurate.

The numbers come from the playtest surveys. They're unlikely to do a survey which would reach more players and have a higher response rate.
We also have to assume it was a representational sampling, as otherwise the game we love would have been made on skwed data, and that's sad.

2: Asking the right questions - Now in my own place of work, I have experience with this. Survey questions are done strategically. They are never just "what do you want?" or "what can we do to make your experience better?" They need to stop asking leading questions.

This is subject to personal thoughts and philosophy on survey design, who they hired to do that design, and if they're still with the company for one survey a month (or fewer).

3: Update the surveys - Put out a new survey asking the right questions around other campaign settings.

What would this do? Any data variance could be attributed to the shifting demographic and smaller sampling. You don't learn anything.

4: Introduce other settings to new players - Well there is supposedly tons of new players so why not pitch to them the idea that there are other campaign settings out there and see what they say?

Two questions: why and how?
How would they introduce new players? Especially given making a campaign setting product is a hella lotta work and they haven't been able to get an FR one out.
Why? What benefit does that get them? Splitting the audience doesn't do much for sales, as demonstrated by TSR at the end and conformed by Paizo sales numbers on Dragon issues focused on particular settings.

5: Converting the old stuff - I would say a lot of people don't convert the old stuff because it takes to long or they just don't feel like doing it. I know they point people to Drivethru but for various reasons it's not always ideal.

True. Thankfully there are a bajillion other fans converting everything if you look hard enough online.

6: Time - This goes along with the conversion part because a lot of us work or go to school so we don't have the time to convert and make up everything.

But they have unlimited time?

7: Wizards needs to define their interpretation of "homebrew" - I have a Dragonlance game that takes place pre-war of the lance so that could classify as "homebrew". Same goes with any other campaign setting used. This can cover a broad range.

I think any setting that is unrelated to a published setting is Homebrew. Your game might be a variant, but it's still Dragonlance at its heart. Everyone customizes settings.

8: Stop pushing the corporate agenda - Let's step back a moment and use Chris Perkins' figures in this exercise. They show that the majority of people homebrew. So why are still trying to focus on story, story, story, set in the Forgotten Realms when what people really want are more setting neutral tools and options to use in their homebrew?

Campaign neutral tools are boring, and setting neutral adventures often lack flavour and detail, which makes them harder to run. Think about it: if Tyranny of Dragons had been generic all the cities would have been blanks and the Council of Waterdeep would be much more vague.
The whole point of a pre-published adventure is to lighten the workload.
Even if you fill in the names, this often isn't generic, but simply a new world with its own assumptions. See Red Hand of Doom or the Nentir Vale stuff. 4e tried the "generic content" route and it didn't work so well.

They also want more stories to coordinate with other properties. The video games, a potential movie, and the like. (Their "shared experience of the game" talking point, which actually makes some sense. Talking with people about how your group went through an adventure can be fun.)

9: Rules that people like - This is a big one for me. I have seen some people talk about 4th edition FR, Eberron and Dark Sun and out of all three FR sold the best. Well it could be the fact that 4th edition wasn't a widely popular ruleset so if you don't like the rules why would you buy content for it? If you introduce a popular ruleset, which they have here, then you would see people buying more material for it.

Or maybe that people only buy one or two campaign settings, so each successive setting book has lower sales money and generates significantly less profit?

10: Just be honest - I know this is the toughest one of all but just be honest. If your goal is to maximize profits buy lowering your overhead just to keep table top D&D afloat to make way for more non table top stuff then just say it. If I know that it's not about what's best for the game and really what's best for your pockets then I will know and can move on to something else.

Their job is not to hold your hand, stroke your hair, and explain all their business decisions to you.
Especially since even if they did come out and say "less tabletop products are better than more, and more profitable" people would shout out a series of "I disagree!" or "but... but... but this exact situation is different!" statements. Which is pretty much exactly what has happened!

 

[Mistwell]

I have trouble taking your posts seriously anymore, though I really want to. You just keep saying the same thing every week, spinning it slightly differently. You don't engage with other people who respond to you. They might make great points in response, but you tend to ignore the great responses, wait a week or two, and then just repeat your same point again.

What's the point of engaging with you, when it's not really a conversation? When are you going to take responsibility for holding your end of the conversation up?

 

[Sacrosanct]

The person who is really not being honest right here is You. To yourself.

You know exactly what WotC is doing and have been railing against them for it this entire time. And yet you refuse to quit. You keep posting over and over and over how they don't know what they know and that what you want is a better course, and if they keep it up, you're going to move on.

If you were truly honest with yourself... you either would have moved on ALREADY... or you would finally admit that you just have to play D&D regardless of how you feel about how it's being presented.

Don't treat the rest of us like we're stupid. We know you want to play D&D. Otherwise, you wouldn't keep complaining about what parts of it you don't like. If you truly didn't want to play it in this fashion, you would have put up or shut up already. But you haven't.

So just stop trying to convince the rest of us. Convince yourself first.

This. The vast majority of your posts Corpsetaker are constant complaining about WoTC and 5e. I never could understand why someone would invest so much time and energy into a game that they clearly don't like (you're not the only one).

I'm gonna be brutally honest. I think at this point it doesn't really matter what you're trying to argue for, because when I see a post, I immediately assume "Oh, he/she's just complaining again." and I don't give it much credence. I really doubt I'm the only one who thinks this. When someone complains constantly, my brain tends to tune them out after a while other than "why are they still here?"

So either move on to a game that you like playing, or stop constantly complaining about how 5e sucks and how the 5e team sucks and are doing it wrong. Talk about things you like more, or adventures you've had with your gaming group that were fun using 5e. At this point we know how WotC operates, and we know how the mechanics of 5e work. Neither is going to change. Constant complaining about either is a fool's errand.

 

[Remathilis]

This is performance art, right?

Hey CT, why don't you start your own OGL-based RPG and supply it with supplements as you think it should be done and show WotC how much money they are throwing away. You could be the next Paizo!

Because armchair quarterbacking is always easier...

 

[mflayermonk]

We need iconoclasts.

 

[Mistwell]

We need iconoclasts.

We really don't. At least, not to the extent and frequency of this, for a niche hobby like this one, on a fan board. Particularly if he refuses to engage in conversation about the issues he raises and then just raises them again in a week or two as if nobody already replied to his points the last time he said it.

 

[mflayermonk]

We really don't. At least, not to the extent and frequency of this, for a niche hobby like this one, on a fan board.

No, I think you need him. If you didn't need him you would just put him on ignore.