5e combat system too simple / boring?

[ChrisCarlson]

I've come to find it is often better to use a boat rather than try to waterproof a car...

 

[Celtavian]

Sure, but that doesn't change the DM's control of the difficulty of challenges at all or how the monsters are just a part of a well-designed challenge. It would be no trouble for me to challenge the party you're talking about without ever changing a single monster's stat block. At any level of play.

I agree the DM controls the difficulty. I would have to see how you fare against our party. It would be an interesting test. It would definitely interest me to read the transcripts of you running an optimized group using excellent tactics. I'd like to see how you run that. If you ever do such a campaign, please post the transcripts so I can check it out.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I'm not a huge fan of how 5e classes are put together, but it seems to me that they have access to just about everything in the 3X/Pathfinder line in some form or another. At the same time, there's less emphasis on one-trick pony martials and buffed-to-no-end casters.

Not nearly everything, no, but the basics, 'in some form,' sure. That's still far short. You can certainly play a veteran-soldier with a pole-arm, for instance, but you won't be having the impact of a 3.x/PF 'battlefield control' build. Between backgrounds and re-skinning you can probably model almost any concept, the result just might not be that viable or that interesting in actual play.

As for 4e, classes had lots of options

A lot of build options, and more choice in-play than 5e martial characters, but vastly less flexibility than 5e neo-Vancian casters.

I found myself using the same attack power progression and tricks 90% of the time [best encounter --> second best encounter --> at-wills; insert daily(ies) as needed]

You could optimize a striker for damage, that way, using multi-attack and minor-action-attack encounter powers and generate a lot of damage in the first round or two of combat. A party full of such characters made for very short combats - most of the time, perhaps punctuated by the occasional disaster when something didn't fit their formula. The result was faster - and, perhaps, less interesting - combats. Much like 5e has delivered.

D&D combat (any edition) is basically a solved problem anyway, white board speaking. Buff Selves. Control Battlefield. Focus Fire. Rest. Repeat.

Heh.

I agree with you that 5e is at its most lethal in the early levels, but I can't say that it's more so than other editions.

5e and classic both give the DM a lot of latitude in how deadly to make his game. Heck, the idea that, maybe, you shouldn't actively try to wipe out the party every session wasn't even exactly universal back then.

But, just, by the numbers. Dying at -10 vs at -hps is deadlier if you have fewer than 10 hps. FWIW.

I no longer have my AD&D 2e DMG to look at, but I recall it having random encounter tables for different terrains, and they did not care about the level of the PCs. You could end up rolling a random encounter with multiple enemies having substantially more HPs and damage potential than the PC party.

I also recall AD&D 2e monster entries having a "number appearing" line. For goblins it was 4D6, which is an average of 14 goblins.

Yep, classic D&D prettymuch lacked any sort of 'balanced-encounter' guidelines, so you could easily have had a newish DM overstocking his dungeons.

Since we're talking about a 2nd edition paladin

I don't know why discussions of AD&D or classic D&D always shift to 2e.

Raise Dead usually had no better than a 75% to 92% chance of working, which means a fair chance of leaving you permanently dead.

It's not like 5E where every 5th level cleric can Revivify you with no permanent impact and no chance of failure

You also didn't die that often at high level. We were talking about a character that needed to roll a 1 to fail a save, rolling that one on an SoD without any other recourse (if it was a poison save, FREX, neutralize poison would have worked even after the fact.

Revivify was introduced in 3.5, which also did away with system shock & CON loss and the like, when you could find yourself dying a whole lot more often and more suddenly, especially to the ever-rising DCs of save-or-dies.

Revivify is just plain stupid.

It's not so bad, a life-saving spell. Maybe a little anachornistically EMT-ish.

(and likely keep dying and suffering more penalties, since the penalties for death are typically things which make you even more likely to die than you already were)

That's a whole 'nuther "death spiral."

The first is starting at level 1.

Yep. Doesn't exactly showcase 5e's best.

The second thing, it sounds like you guys just have crappy luck.

A system can be more or less vulnerable to that kind of thing. 5e shouldn't be, because of DM Empowerment....

I wonder how many DM's feel comfortable adding in the optional rules from the DMG, I wonder how many DM's or players remember all of the things you can do.

A DM runs more creatures than a player, and they're different every time, so it's pretty easy to 'forget' - or intentionally skip over - some of their options.

Dash, Disengage, Dodge, Help, breaking up Movement between attacks, Grappling, Shoving, these are all things any character or monster can do

which does make them less interesting to players.

I wonder if part of the problem is how much experience a lot of you guys already have.

That works both ways. 5e is very much pointed at the long-time or even nostalgic player, its familiarity is one of its biggest selling points.

 

[iserith]

I agree the DM controls the difficulty. I would have to see how you fare against our party. It would be an interesting test. I wonder what you would do if the party refused to engage the encounter as you wanted them to do. It would definitely interest me to read the transcripts of you running an optimized group using excellent tactics. I'd like to see how you run that. If you ever do such a campaign, please post the transcripts so I can check it out.

It's unlikely I'd do the transcripts again as it was a lot of work. If you want to workshop a challenge together for your party some day, we can certainly do that here on the forums. As you may or may not know, I post short-form scenarios on the forums on a regular basis so I'd be happy to do one for your group with some guidance from you. Then you can test it out on them. It may be educational and entertaining for other community members as well.

 

[Celtavian]

It's unlikely I'd do the transcripts again as it was a lot of work. If you want to workshop a challenge together for your party some day, we can certainly do that here on the forums. As you may or may not know, I post short-form scenarios on the forums on a regular basis so I'd be happy to do one for your group with some guidance from you. Then you can test it out on them. It may be educational and entertaining for other community members as well.

Tell me what you think of this challenge. It's the final room of a dungeon for 6 level 6 characters. You think it can give them a good run?


J8. Bramblemounds: A huge tree 30 feet high covered in thorny vines resides in the center of the room room. Several smaller trees around 20 feet high stand about the room in various places. The room is 60 feet high with arched of glass. Sunlight lights the room.

This tree is alive. It is an enormously powerful treant that has been given the duty of guarding the druid’s treasure until forest defenders return. Brambleheart shouts at the PCs, “You are not welcome here. No one can have the treasures of the druids. Death to those that invade the Vault of Thorns.”

Lair Action: On initiative count 20 (losing initiative ties), Brambleheart takes a lair action to cause one of the following effects:

Entangle: Brambleheart can cause an area to act as the equivalent of an entangle spell. DC 15 strength save and check to escape.


Brambleheart. Legendary Treant. Gargantuan Plant Neutral Evil
Armor Class 18 (natural armor); Hit Points 312 (16d20 + 96); Speed 30ft.
STR 24 (+7) DEX 8 (- 1) CON 22 (+6) INT 12 (+1) WIS 16 (+3) CHA 12 (+1)
Saves Str +11, Con +11, Wis +7
Skills Perception +7, Investigation +5, Athletics +11
Damage Resistances bludgeoning, piercing
Damage Vulnerabilities fire
Senses passive Perception 17
Languages Common, Druidic, Elvish, Sylvan
Challenge 12 (8400 XP)

False Appearance. While the treant remains motionless, it is indistinguishable from a normal tree.
Siege Monster. The treant deals double damage to objects and structures.

ACTIONS
Multiattack. The treant makes two slam attacks.

Slam. Melee Weapon Attack: +11 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 4d6+7 bludgeoning damage.

Rock. Ranged Weapon Attack: +11 to hit, range 60/180 ft., one target. Hit: 28 (5d10+7) bludgeoning damage. 10: rocks scattered about the room in easy reach for the treants.

Animate Trees (1/Day). The treant magically animates one or two trees it can see within 60 feet of it. These trees have the same statistics as a treant, except they have Intelligence and Charisma scores of 1, they can't speak, and they have only the Slam action option. An animated tree acts as an ally of the treant. The tree remains animate for 1 day or until it dies; until the treant dies or is more than 120 feet from the tree; or until the treant takes a bonus action to turn it back into an inanimate tree. The tree then takes root if possible.

Legendary Resistance: 3/day. If the Brambleheart fails a saving throw, it can choose to succeed instead.

Legendary Actions: The treant can take 3 legendary actions, choosing from the options below. Only one legendary action option can be usedat a time and only at the end of another creature's turn. The treant regains spent legendary actions at the start of its turn.

Blood-drinking Bramble: Melee Weapon Attack: +11 to hit, reach 30 ft., one target. Hit: 4d6+7 piercing damage.
The blood-drinking bramble stalk wraps the target in a thorny vine that drinks the blood of the target healing the treant. The target takes 6d6 necrotic damage on a hit that the treant heals. The target is restrained and must make a DC 19 strength check to escape from the bramble. The target does not take any more piercing damage from the vine. It does take the blood drain every round. If the treant moves, the target gets dragged with the treant must make a DC 19 Dex save or Acrobatics check to stay on their feet. If they fail, they are knocked prone and dragged with the treant. A vine can be severed by doing 20 points of damage to it. It has an AC of 18. It has the same resistance to bludgeoning and piercing damage as the treant. Fire can burn the bramble to cinders. The treant is covered in the vines and can continue to attack with them indefinitely.

Rock (2 actions): Brambleheart can throw a second rock.

Attack: The treant can make a Slam attack.

 

[iserith]

Tell me what you think of this challenge. It's the final room of a dungeon for 6 level 6 characters. You think it can give them a good run?

[sblock]
J8. Bramblemounds: A huge tree 30 feet high covered in thorny vines resides in the center of the room room. Several smaller trees around 20 feet high stand about the room in various places. The room is 60 feet high with arched of glass. Sunlight lights the room.

This tree is alive. It is an enormously powerful treant that has been given the duty of guarding the druid’s treasure until forest defenders return. Brambleheart shouts at the PCs, “You are not welcome here. No one can have the treasures of the druids. Death to those that invade the Vault of Thorns.”

Lair Action: On initiative count 20 (losing initiative ties), Brambleheart takes a lair action to cause one of the following effects:

Entangle: Brambleheart can cause an area to act as the equivalent of an entangle spell. DC 15 strength save and check to escape.


Brambleheart. Legendary Treant. Gargantuan Plant Neutral Evil
Armor Class 18 (natural armor); Hit Points 312 (16d20 + 96); Speed 30ft.
STR 24 (+7) DEX 8 (- 1) CON 22 (+6) INT 12 (+1) WIS 16 (+3) CHA 12 (+1)
Saves Str +11, Con +11, Wis +7
Skills Perception +7, Investigation +5, Athletics +11
Damage Resistances bludgeoning, piercing
Damage Vulnerabilities fire
Senses passive Perception 17
Languages Common, Druidic, Elvish, Sylvan
Challenge 12 (8400 XP)

False Appearance. While the treant remains motionless, it is indistinguishable from a normal tree.
Siege Monster. The treant deals double damage to objects and structures.

ACTIONS
Multiattack. The treant makes two slam attacks.

Slam. Melee Weapon Attack: +11 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 4d6+7 bludgeoning damage.

Rock. Ranged Weapon Attack: +11 to hit, range 60/180 ft., one target. Hit: 28 (5d10+7) bludgeoning damage. 10: rocks scattered about the room in easy reach for the treants.

Animate Trees (1/Day). The treant magically animates one or two trees it can see within 60 feet of it. These trees have the same statistics as a treant, except they have Intelligence and Charisma scores of 1, they can't speak, and they have only the Slam action option. An animated tree acts as an ally of the treant. The tree remains animate for 1 day or until it dies; until the treant dies or is more than 120 feet from the tree; or until the treant takes a bonus action to turn it back into an inanimate tree. The tree then takes root if possible.

Legendary Resistance: 3/day. If the Brambleheart fails a saving throw, it can choose to succeed instead.

Legendary Actions: The treant can take 3 legendary actions, choosing from the options below. Only one legendary action option can be usedat a time and only at the end of another creature's turn. The treant regains spent legendary actions at the start of its turn.

Blood-drinking Bramble: Melee Weapon Attack: +11 to hit, reach 30 ft., one target. Hit: 4d6+7 piercing damage.
The blood-drinking bramble stalk wraps the target in a thorny vine that drinks the blood of the target healing the treant. The target takes 6d6 necrotic damage on a hit that the treant heals. The target is restrained and must make a DC 19 strength check to escape from the bramble. The target does not take any more piercing damage from the vine. It does take the blood drain every round. If the treant moves, the target gets dragged with the treant must make a DC 19 Dex save or Acrobatics check to stay on their feet. If they fail, they are knocked prone and dragged with the treant. A vine can be severed by doing 20 points of damage to it. It has an AC of 18. It has the same resistance to bludgeoning and piercing damage as the treant. Fire can burn the bramble to cinders. The treant is covered in the vines and can continue to attack with them indefinitely.

Rock (2 actions): Brambleheart can throw a second rock.

Attack: The treant can make a Slam attack.[/sblock]

What kind of party does your group have? If you posted it already, please point me to the post as I may have missed it in the exchange. It seems sufficiently powerful for a 4-man 6th-level party. Though if you have 6 PCs, a straight-up fight starts looking easy to me just on action economy alone.

What's the PCs' primary goal here? It seems to be to get the druids' treasure. Can they just grab it and go? Can they take this thing down from range or does the forest prohibit ranged attacks after a certain distance due to its thickness?

What's up with those glass arches? When I see a treant's siege monster ability and glass arches, I'm thinking it needs to be raining sharp glass like nobody's business which makes for a nice AOE and potentially areas of hazardous terrain that lingers.

I'd also be inclined - especially if you have more than 4 PCs - to replace Animate Trees with Create Buttload of Needle Blights. Or perhaps have that as a Legendary Action.

 

[Celtavian]

What kind of party does your group have? If you posted it already, please point me to the post as I may have missed it in the exchange. It seems sufficiently powerful for a 4-man 6th-level party. Though if you have 6 PCs, a straight-up fight starts looking easy to me just on action economy alone.

What's the PCs' primary goal here? It seems to be to get the druids' treasure. Can they just grab it and go? Can they take this thing down from range or does the forest prohibit ranged attacks after a certain distance due to its thickness?

What's up with those glass arches? When I see a treant's siege monster ability and glass arches, I'm thinking it needs to be raining sharp glass like nobody's business which makes for a nice AOE and potentially areas of hazardous terrain that lingers.

I'd also be inclined - especially if you have more than 4 PCs - to replace Animate Trees with Create Buttload of Needle Blights. Or perhaps have that as a Legendary Action.

The Party:
1. Eladrin Rogue 2/Sorcerer 4
2. Hill Dwarf Cleric of light 6
3. Half-elf Lore Bard 6
4. Human Ftr 1/Warlock 5
5. Human Paladin (Oath of Vengeance) 6
6. Ranger (Hunter) 6 Sharpshooter

The primary goal is defeat the guardian of the treasure. They've been sent to this place to recover weapons used by an ancient order of druids and rangers to use against an army of giants threatening their home. They will reach this room after traversing several rooms with a mix of threats.

Tactics:
1. Animate two trees which will add two treants with slam attacks and around 130 hit points each to the fight. That will boost its side to three attack actions for six attacks with three legendary actions and one lair actions versus the party's six actions along with bonus actions and reactions.

2. It will attempt to entangle as many people as possible using its lair action giving them the restrained condition. Hopefully this will help it deal with ranged attackers who usually have high dex, but lower strength.

3. The blood-drinking vine should help it heal itself.

4. The boulders laying about will provide it a potent ranged attack that dose an average of 34 damage a hit with two possible boulders a round. This is the attack that really worries. Could take out a PC in one round.

5. It has unbeatable resistance to slashing and piercing damage, but vulnerability to fire.

6. I think the room is 60 by 60 feet with a 30 foot ceiling. This stops them from keeping it at range to mitigate damage, though they could try to fire arrows from the door. Likely the rocks would be used to create a barricade to cut them off or the blood-drinking vine or treant drag them in the room.

My main concern is the creature's damage output is high. The creature itself along with the two treants is a lot of damage to stand against for 6th level characters. Then again it likely wont' hit with all its attacks.

Breaking the glass arches might be something it does in desperation. This is the home it guards, so it will try to avoid its destruction unless it is on the verge of death. I might write in some Sampson moment when it is dying it uses its reaction to shatter the glass arches hoping to kill its enemy before it falls. Sort of like a balor death effect. That might be cool.

 

[Azurewraith]

Seems good to be i wouldn't worry to much about the damage it you have a pretty bulky party and have some healing on hand if needed. Nailing the rogue/sorcerer with the bramble should help keep it alive as they will struggle to break out alone and it will take an action to break it for them by someone else on top of a nice healthy healing chunk. Personal i would use the animated trees to try and separate the party and have them fighting on several fronts to try and draw fire away from brambleheart and if possible grapple a low skill pc so brambleheart can really go to town.

If things do seem to get out of hand Brambleheart could suggest the pcs leave this place to avoid incurring his wrath.

 

[iserith]

The primary goal is defeat the guardian of the treasure. They've been sent to this place to recover weapons used by an ancient order of druids and rangers to use against an army of giants threatening their home. They will reach this room after traversing several rooms with a mix of threats.

It's not clear to me if the weapons are in the room beyond this treant or in the same room. I'd probably put them in the same room, perhaps tangled up in its roots or high up in its branches. Small subchambers spread out in the room might also be good for this (like one weapon per room) or small mounds. This adds the exploration pillar to the challenge.

If the PCs can figure out a way to get the weapons and get out, then the damage output of the monsters effectively become a countdown to doom - linger and pay with blood. Get the weapons and flee and you have a better chance of survival. This is a good way for you to set aside any concern about the monster's damage output. One good hit will demonstrate the danger in slugging it out to the bitter end and, if your players are as savvy as you say, they'll modify their approach accordingly.

Tactics:
1. Animate two trees which will add two treants with slam attacks and around 130 hit points each to the fight. That will boost its side to three attack actions for six attacks with three legendary actions and one lair actions versus the party's six actions along with bonus actions and reactions.

I still think the needle blights are the way to go. They're easier to dispatch individually or perhaps with an AOE, increase the action economy of Team Monster, and are a little more interesting than a couple of extra trees to fight. Two dozen or so ought to do it. If the thought of running 24 monsters is troubling, you could make it a swarm that degrades into 12 individual monsters when reduced to half hit points.

4. The boulders laying about will provide it a potent ranged attack that dose an average of 34 damage a hit with two possible boulders a round. This is the attack that really worries. Could take out a PC in one round.

I would probably limit the boulders to three and have the chamber be big enough where if the boulder is thrown at a PC at the edge of the chamber, then the treant has to move to recover a boulder. If the players are clever, they can get the boulders spaced out enough to where the treant can't use that throw rock Legendary Action.

5. It has unbeatable resistance to slashing and piercing damage, but vulnerability to fire.

How much access to fire does the group have? What's your call on a PC lighting up his or her arrows? Does one of the druid weapons have some kind of "flaming" quality? I would probably put one of those in as a reward for engaging with the exploration pillar, provided you use the idea I mentioned above.

Breaking the glass arches might be something it does in desperation. This is the home it guards, so it will try to avoid its destruction unless it is on the verge of death. I might write in some Sampson moment when it is dying it uses its reaction to shatter the glass arches hoping to kill its enemy before it falls. Sort of like a balor death effect. That might be cool.

When I see Siege Monster, I want to break stuff. I would give some serious thought to building the environment such that this becomes a thing. The Samson moment is cool and is a classic trope of the cavern/ruins crumbling after the BBEG goes down - the challenge of escaping the place before being cut to shreds might be a good finish.

Another idea might be to have the chamber be some kind of big thorny pit with the treant in the center and wooden platforms running from the door to a central platform that surrounds it and out to other chambers (perhaps where the weapons are stored). The treant generally stays put in the center, but it can smash the platforms the PCs are standing on, causing a fall. It can also smash the platforms that lead to the weapon chambers, complicating the PCs' efforts to reach them. This may also alleviate some of your concerns about its damage output since it isn't attacking PCs if it's attacking platforms.

 

[Condiments]

• A lake battle with a hezrou as it sought to destroy the PCs' keel boat - the party cleric made excellent use of control water here.
• A running combat with vrocks through a trap-filled area of the dungeon which split the party.
• An intense fight between the PCs and a glabrezu, battling near prismatic walls. One PC went down and another was almost pushed in before turning the tables on the demon.
• An awesome battle between a succubus and her wight consorts. The elf rogue was seriously drained after this fight, maximum hit points in the single digits. She later became their ally for a time before the PCs betrayed her.
• A fight with a chasme and some mummies as the PCs were either trying not to fall off a huge demonic statue or struggling to climb out of the pit of bones at its feet. The halfling fighter/rogue leaped onto the back of the chasme and crash landed it.
• The climactic battle was with a balor on a fiery battlefield with a horde of dretches roaming about. Two PCs died in this fight, but they managed to save the day.

There were others, but these were the ones that I recall off the top of my head. You can read the transcripts from the game, including mechanics, in the link I provided above. They were all great scenes with a good level of difficulty. So I'm beginning to wonder if either my expectations are different from other folks or whether I'm designing challenges in an entirely different fashion.

This is very interesting to hear. As I've designed fights throughout of the 10 or so months of my DMing career, its gotten easier to design flashier tactically interesting fights, but I don't think I have a clear idea of how to repeat it with success. I play on Roll20 and run on a grid, so I usually design maps beforehand. Do you have some sort of methodology when designing these set piece battles to ensure they become incredible fights? I put in environment effects and different elevations but its a fine line to walk. You want to provide interesting decisions to players while not frustrating them with overly punishing environmental challenges that make for un-interesting gameplay.