D&D 5E Why do Sorcerers have so few spells compared to other full Casters

[abirdcall]

Sorcery points can only be spread so far. Also not every Sorcerer is a blaster. I chose Sorcerer as it fit best for my character concept. Why penalize because a player for trying to play a character differently. Other spellcasters, both full and 1/2 casters, have other abilities that make it powerful and have larger selections of spell's known.
Wizards can be blisters and regain spell slots after short rest. That's powerful. Twinning spell's can be very costly. And with a limited pool between long rests, can be depleted very quickly.

BTW my character doesn't have twinning (though have quicken) and no plans on getting it. I have Subtle. Not everyone tries to build the most powerful character.

That's like saying 'my character concept is a fighter who casts spells but EKs suck at spells compared to other casters. Why penalize me just for my character concept?'

Classes are mechanically different from each other on purpose. I prefer for fluff to inform mechanics. For those who don't it is easy enough to refluff other classes to your purpose. Far easier than it is to change the mechanics at any rate.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

You are still thinking inside a little box, damage and defense aren't everything. How about talking ravens? shadow ponies? invisible butlers? flying disks? other dimensions? playing with memories? cursing people to eternal slumber? something as small as making people laugh? Sorcerer is the archetype that lends itself to be irresponsible and thoughtless with magic, the class that can allow itself to have fun with magic, you are not a brainy stick in the mud, you are magic incarnate! Yet 5e doesn't let you have that kind of fun, you are expected to blast by the designers -and sometimes your party too- and you don't have many ways to break out of that mold, instead you gotta scratch whatever source of utility you can have. And no, wizards don't suffer this, because they don't need to specialize at all, a first level wizard has enough attack, defense and utility, and when they not, they can just use gold for even more of whatever they need.

Not to mention Wizards don't even need to prepare a lot of their spells if they happen to be rituals. They can cast them whenever without using spells slots as long as they have the time.

 

[ScuroNotte]

The Sorc's spell list includes most of the best damage dealing and defensive spells in the game, which are made all the more potent with sorc points. They're great, but you will find yourself pining for a select few spells like Forcecage and Maze that you won't have access to..well until 9th level when you could wish for something like Maze...and then maybe twin it.

If you want greater versatility or your DM puts you up against a great many battles before allowing a long rest then the Sorc is probably the wrong choice. Otherwise, I couldn't recommend it enough.

That's if you want to play a Sorcerer as a blaster. But what of people who want to play the class differently. Why is it for other classes you can chooses the type of character you want to be but a Sorcerer must be a blaster and nothing else? The player chooses who the character is and the style of play, not the other way around

 

[ScuroNotte]

That's like saying 'my character concept is a fighter who casts spells but EKs suck at spells compared to other casters. Why penalize me just for my character concept?'

Classes are mechanically different from each other on purpose. I prefer for fluff to inform mechanics. For those who don't it is easy enough to refluff other classes to your purpose. Far easier than it is to change the mechanics at any rate.

Yes, classes are mechanically different. Your example of not liking spells for EK is not the same. The Sorcerer is labeled as a blaster and for that reason alone is given fewer spells. And the Metamagic allows them to deal more damage. However, using Metamagic regularly is not beneficial as they are replenished after a long rest. So if you limit your use of metamagic or are depleted, you are limited spellcaster who can't replenish spellslots like a Wizard, Warlock, or Land Druid. Or rely on other abilities such as shape changing Moon Druid.

Tha Bards dies and the Battle Master's due replenish after a short rest so they can continue using their special features. The Sorcerer gets an extremely pathetic, limited version at level 20?! So hoarding the "Special" feature is essential.

 

[ScuroNotte]

So here are a few house rules I have to help balance the sorcerer compared to the wizard:

1) They can create spell slots up to 6th level using sorcery points. The cost is 9 sorcery points.

2) Draconic Bloodline Sorcerers get the following spells as bonus known spells at the appropriate level. These spells cannot be swapped out:

1st Level: Burning Hands*, Detect Magic
3rd Level: Agnazaar’s Scorcher*, Enthrall
5th Level: Fear, Fireball*
7th Level: Elemental Bane**, Wall of Fire*
9th Level: Cone of cold*
* Damage type changes to type associated with your dragon heritage
** Damage type affected by spell is always the type associated with your dragon heritage

3) Wild Magic Sorcerers get the following spells as bonus known spells at the appropriate level. These spells cannot be swapped out:

1st Level: Chromatic Orb*, Hex
3rd Level: Crown of Madness, Mirror Image
5th Level: Counterspell, Hypnotic Pattern
7th Level: Confusion, Freedom of Movement
9th Level: Animate Objects
*Does not require Material Component, but must roll a d6 to randomly determine energy type of the spell damage.

4) Storm Sorcerers get the additional spells as presented in their original format in UA.

5) Shadow Sorcerers get the following spells as bonus known spells at the appropriate level. These spells cannot be swapped out:

1st Level: Silent Image, Sleep
3rd Level: Invisibility, Misty Step
5th Level: Major Image, Nondetection
7th Level: Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility
9th Level: Mislead

6) Font of Magic is given at first level. Sorcerers start with 2 points, but don't gain any more sorcery points until 3rd level.

7A) Metamagic is given at 2nd level rather than 3rd. Subsequent metamagic is gained as normal.

7B) I've changed Careful Spell to include the following: If you choose to spend 3 sorcery points, your chosen creatures are completely unaffected by the spell.

8) I've replaced the capstone ability of Sorcererous Restoration with Vicious Spellcasting.

Vicious Spellcasting
At 20th level, whenever you cast a spell that causes damage, you can add your charisma modifier to the damage dealt.

I've also made changes to each bloodline's abilities to tweak them, but I feel these are the biggest changes I made to the sorcerer.

At one table I play, the Sorcerer spells known increases incrementally to 20 at 20th level.

The trial ability is Sorcerous Restoration at 7th level, after a short rest you regain half of your Sorcery points used. The justification is that Sorcery points are the bread and butter of the class. They should be able to regain usage as Bardic Inspiration die or Battle Master's combat die.

A corresponding 20th level ability was not decided.

 

[Parmandur]

That's if you want to play a Sorcerer as a blaster. But what of people who want to play the class differently. Why is it for other classes you can chooses the type of character you want to be but a Sorcerer must be a blaster and nothing else? The player chooses who the character is and the style of play, not the other way around

Here's the thing: the Sorcerer is a blaster.



The Dragon Mage is a tanky blaster.



The Storm Mage is a flighty, electric blaster.



The Wild Mage is a crazy blaster.



The Shadow Mage is a spooky blaster.



The Favored Soul is a Cleric-flavored blaster.



But yeah, the people who have had fun with the Sorcerer played them as blaster. Just like people who have played rogues have had fun of they use skills and sneak attack.



It's what the class does. Working as designed.



Can the Wizard be a blaster? Sure, and decent: but, and this is key, not as good as the Sorcerer.

Maybe future Sorcerer builds will emphasize other aspects more; just like they have introduced multi-class archetypes to other classes. Bit the underlying design is "blaster."

 

[MoonSong]

Here's the thing: the Sorcerer is a blaster.

I dispute that one.

The Favored Soul is a Cleric-flavored blaster.

Favored Soul is not a blaster. In fact it is the one that gets closer to the classical sorcerer. It is a little limited on the concepts you can do, mostly because you are limited by domain lists -I would shut up of there was an official domain with familiar, unseen servant floating disk, silence, sequester and the like-. Really, it let's you do a lot of concepts, the weapon profs free your spell and cantrip choices, and the access to some wizard spells greatly helps to cover more ground. Life makes a nice cleric wannabe -twin cures!!-, but war makes you a cool battlemage, nature gives you nice drudish flavor, and so on. It almost fixes the sorcerer, almost.

[And wizards are good at blasting, they just don't specialize]

 

[ScuroNotte]

Here's the thing: the Sorcerer is a blaster.



The Dragon Mage is a tanky blaster.



The Storm Mage is a flighty, electric blaster.



The Wild Mage is a crazy blaster.



The Shadow Mage is a spooky blaster.



The Favored Soul is a Cleric-flavored blaster.



But yeah, the people who have had fun with the Sorcerer played them as blaster. Just like people who have played rogues have had fun of they use skills and sneak attack.



It's what the class does. Working as designed.



Can the Wizard be a blaster? Sure, and decent: but, and this is key, not as good as the Sorcerer.

Maybe future Sorcerer builds will emphasize other aspects more; just like they have introduced multi-class archetypes to other classes. Bit the underlying design is "blaster."

If they are supposed to be solely a blaster, why are there so many utility and control spells on their spell list? It would have been limited as the Warlocks spell list. They can be the best blaster, but are restricted to it by spells, only restricted by the restraints of spells known and inability to regain sorcery points; which is the primary focus of the class. But are not able to replenish after short rest as bards or battle masters die (until 20th level)

We'll agree to disagree, as you have not convinced me otherwise as I have not convinced you.
I do appreciate your opposing arguments though. Thank you

 

[MoonSong]

If they are supposed to be solely a blaster, why are there so many utility and control spells on their spell list? It would have been limited as the Warlocks spell list. They can be the best blaster, but are restricted to it by spells, only restricted by the restraints of spells known and inability to regain sorcery points; which is the primary focus of the class. But are not able to replenish after short rest as bards or battle masters die (until 20th level)

We'll agree to disagree, as you have not convinced me otherwise as I have not convinced you.
I do appreciate your opposing arguments though. Thank you

I thought Warlock/Sorcerer was the best blaster.

 

[Grimgold]

Sorcs are specialist, wizards are generalist. Some seem to think Sorcs can only specialize in blasting, but metamagic can be applied to any specialization. There are other specializations, for example;

A save or suck sorc using heighten and twin can affect the battle in ways a wizard never could despite having the same spells, snag a few buff spells for legendary resistance.
A battle field control sorc using quicken never has to choose between creating advantage for his allies or disadvantage for his foes.
A social focused sorc can use subtle spell to augment an already high charisma by undetectably casting charms and compulsions.

Just calling them blasters shows a lack of imagination, sorcs are all specialist, but they are not all the same specialty. They are also much more flexible in how they use their spell slots, if they need more low level spells they can crunch a high level spell, and their low level slots continue to be useful since they can be used as fuel for higher level spells or metamagic. Don't like the second level spells, don't know any, and just use the slots for extra juice. Sorcs will almost always have the spells slots they need when they need them, even after many battles between rests.

Also spell casting doesn't exist in a vacuum, on the whole charisma is a much more useful primary stat than intelligence. With the right background and a good charisma it's trivial to become the face of the party, a role that's useful every time you interact with NPCs, wizards on the other hand get to hang out and hope something obscure comes up so they get a chance to use their knowledge skills.