D&D 5E Fixing the Champion

[I'm A Banana]

Well sure. But this way you get it with all weapons without costing you a feat. I mean pole arm master gets the same effect as well. Why not just build it straight into the class? Perhaps granting an additional extra attack later down the road. So at high level you get your three or four attacks plus two attacks on the bonus action.

Nah, man, I mean the normal TFW ability that every character has. Any fighter can pick up a pair of scimitars and get to swingin' with bonus action attacks. No feats, no fighting styles, no nothin' aside from picking up the weapons in the first place. I think you can even do it with the basic fighter equipment load-out.

You could fighting-style/feat to make it better, but every character can get a bonus action attack right out the gate.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

I suppose I can somewhat see this argument, given the Battlemaster gets guaranteed abilities while the champion's abilities rely on luck. The only thing I might changed is adding this bit into improved critical:

In addition, when you successfully hit a target with an attack, you can treat the attack as a critical. Once you do this, you must finish a short or long rest before you can use it again.

When you get superior critical, you can use it twice per short or long rest.

As for the Remarkable Athlete, I might add that you can choose to add double proficiency bonus to athletics or acrobatics, similar to the expertise ability.

Those are the only changes I might consider. Generally I see the fighter archetypes as fairly balanced against each other.

 

[77IM]

I'm not sure whether or not Champion is too weak, but the proposed changes certainly look too strong.

Instead of increasing crit range even further, I might suggest: when a Champion scores a critical hit they roll an extra weapon damage die and add their ability modifier to it. That's a nice little boost -- not quite as good as the barbarian's Brutal Critical, but still substantial, especially at level 3.

 

[Xeviat]

Math warning, it's easy.

Level 3 Champion
+5 to hit, 2d6*+3 damage, 19-20 crit; vs AC 13 (65% hit, 10% crit)
11.33*0.65, +8.33*0.1 = 7.3645+0.833=8.2 per attack

Level 3 Battlemaster
+5 to hit, 2d6*+3 damage, 20 crit; vs AC 13 (65% hit, 5% crit)
11.33*0.65, +8.33*0.05 = 7.36666...+0.4166... = 7.78 per attack, +13.5 per short rest, or roughly 40.5 per day.

Level 3 Eldritch Knight
+5 to hit, 2d6*+3 damage, 20 crit; vs AC 13 (65% hit, 5% crit)
11.33*0.65, +8.33*0.05 = 7.36666...+0.4166... = 7.78 per attack, plus 2 spells per long rest (

3 times per short rest, the Battlemaster has a standard action attack for an average of 15.83 (oh, and they don't waist it if they don't hit, because they don't use it unless they hit generally). That's nearly 3d10 damage, which is more damage than a 1st level single target spell deals. I know that a single target damage spell isn't the best use of an Eldritch Knight's spell slot, but I'm looking at equivalencies here. The Battlemaster gets 3/short rest of their ability, which amounts to about 9 a day with two short rests, while the Eldritch Knight gets their ability twice per day (though the new SCAG cantrips do make them cooler).

The Battlemaster has too many dice at level 3. The Champion needs to drop slightly more than 10 attacks to equalize their damage with a Battlemaster having 1 die; even that's a lot to ask for with the way things are balanced now. At about 3 rounds per combat, with an action surge, the Champion will get like 7 attacks. If crits included all damage, it would get slightly better, but not by much.

That's why the Champion looks bad. The Champion doesn't look bad compared to the EK. They just look bad compared to the BM.

Also, someone was comparing the Battlemaster to the Warlock. The Warlock is a full caster, akin to the Sorcerer and Wizard. The Battlemaster is akin to the Eldritch Knight, who has a slower spell progression than the Sorcerer, and slower than the Paladin. So the Warlock having more spell slots then the Battlemaster has maneuver slots per short rest will never bother me; the Warlock has more spell slots than the EK over the course of a day too.

 

[Hussar]

Nah, man, I mean the normal TFW ability that every character has. Any fighter can pick up a pair of scimitars and get to swingin' with bonus action attacks. No feats, no fighting styles, no nothin' aside from picking up the weapons in the first place. I think you can even do it with the basic fighter equipment load-out.

You could fighting-style/feat to make it better, but every character can get a bonus action attack right out the gate.

My way though would not force you to know se two weapons which would allow for more concepts.

The upshot AFAIC, is that a champion simply will always lag behind any character that can guarantee damage bonuses. That extra 5% chance of a critical only equates to one bonus hit over the course of twenty hits. It's simply not enough to keep up. On twenty hits, the BM is getting 21 damage dice plus 4d6 at a minimum. The champion is only getting 22 hits. And that final hit doesn't include ability bonuses. At best his bonus damage is still half, at best, of the BM's. If the BM has a single short rest in there, now he's got +8d6 damage. That single bonus crit can't come close to that.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

The upshot AFAIC, is that a champion simply will always lag behind any character that can guarantee damage bonuses. That extra 5% chance of a critical only equates to one bonus hit over the course of twenty hits. It's simply not enough to keep up. On twenty hits, the BM is getting 21 damage dice plus 4d6 at a minimum. The champion is only getting 22 hits. And that final hit doesn't include ability bonuses. At best his bonus damage is still half, at best, of the BM's. If the BM has a single short rest in there, now he's got +8d6 damage. That single bonus crit can't come close to that.

All true. But...maneuver dice only work that way if you use them immediately. If you save them (or even just a few of them) "until you think you need them"...the overall numbers are going to come out looking different (and unpredictable).

Maybe some players do just blow them all in damage immediately, but I expect most will hold onto some, and therefore, unless short rests in that campaign are highly predictable they are going to end up not using all their dice.

But Battle Master's cool is about the maneuvers themselves. Taking it just for damage is somehow wrong in a deeply disturbing way.

 

[Doctorbatman]

Champion's mainly for people that wanna make a simple fighter. Smarter than a barbarian but not as complicated as a battle master. It's a happy middle ground, I'd say. I made one for a one off campaign for people to choose from. Turned out pretty well for that.

 

[I'm A Banana]

My way though would not force you to know se two weapons which would allow for more concepts.

Except that it would mean picking up two scimitars would be a "waste" of a class feature, so it'd sort of pigeonhole you into using one weapon.

The upshot AFAIC, is that a champion simply will always lag behind any character that can guarantee damage bonuses. That extra 5% chance of a critical only equates to one bonus hit over the course of twenty hits. It's simply not enough to keep up. On twenty hits, the BM is getting 21 damage dice plus 4d6 at a minimum. The champion is only getting 22 hits. And that final hit doesn't include ability bonuses. At best his bonus damage is still half, at best, of the BM's. If the BM has a single short rest in there, now he's got +8d6 damage. That single bonus crit can't come close to that.

Personally, not so interested in comparing it vs. the BM numbers as I am in comparing it to expected party damage vs. monsters. My metric would be: does a party with a Champion in it take more rounds to kill a monster group than a party with a BM in it? I don't know that that's the case (pretty sure ANY fighter hits the threshold there), and if it's not, it looks like the Champion is doing its job just fine - being a reliable option for someone who wants a simple fighter. Folks who don't want a simple fighter aren't happy with it, and that's OK, as long as folks who do want a simple fighter are happy with it. Aside from that, comparing it to the BM damage is like comparing, say, a bard and a cleric in terms of healing. It doesn't really matter who does more, what matters is if both can do enough. After a certain point, it's all just an ego thing.

It's not really a "whose is bigger?" pissing contest, IMO. After a certain point, it doesn't matter. Do Champions reach that point? Seems like they might, even if they "lag behind" the BM.

 

[ad_hoc]

I can see the argument for tweaking Remarkable Athlete. I like the idea of Jack of All Trades but just for the physical stats. I don't think it would cause problems to allow it to apply in addition to proficiency.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

I saw a numerical analysis of the Champion somewhere on the boards. And the upshot of it was that the Champion competes just fine with the other archtypes. Now, I think the Champion is boring as all get, but then a "hit things and not think about it too much" class isn't for me at the best of times. (I'm a castery resource manager and puzzle solver sort of person).