D&D 5E Fixing the Champion

[Zardnaar]

As usual @Zardnaar, I both feel that I understand what you are saying and am certain that I have no idea why you are saying it.

My main point I suppose was they could have made the chaion beter without having to resort to the class abilities they gave it because they did not want to assign numbers rather than just use the advantage mechanic (which the fighter doesn't get much of anyway).

THe Champion comes up short vs the Battlemaster early in the levels and against the EK at higher levels. Its peak of power relative to the other fighters is around level 11 I suppose.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

My main point I suppose was they could have made the chaion beter without having to resort to the class abilities they gave it because they did not want to assign numbers rather than just use the advantage mechanic (which the fighter doesn't get much of anyway).

THe Champion comes up short vs the Battlemaster early in the levels and against the EK at higher levels. Its peak of power relative to the other fighters is around level 11 I suppose.

Oh, well... yeah... they could have done a bunch of things differently with a bunch of different parts of the game and ended up with fun stuff - but that doesn't mean they didn't both achieve their goals (in this case reduction of +this and +that features because they invariably bog down the game) and make a fun class.

As to the champion "coming up short" - my experience is that such is untrue outside of the white room.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

For an archetype whose bread-and-butter thing is dealing damage and critting more often, champion doesn't deal more damage or even crit more often against a semi-lucky player.

Maybe it's just poorly worded, but are you suggesting that a champion fighter is not balanced because another player, playing something else, may get lucky and crit more often in spite of the champion's improved crit range?

I just need you to tell me that's not what you meant. It's how it reads, I just don't want to believe that's actually your argument.

 

[Uchawi]

The idea of dice determining the power of the class works better with the wild sorcerer, since that class can fall back on standard spells. There is not much for the champion, even if you crit more often. But it is simple.

But I do not like how the simplicity of a champion holds back classes like the battle master in regards to having more interesting abilities. In that sense the champion is an anchor.

 

[Hussar]

We've seen this with several classes where on paper and in dpr analysis things seem out of whack but in actual game play it might not. We've had only a couple champion characters in our game and they certainly didn't seem lacking in damage. Mostly the players enjoyed playing them because their simplicity allowed them to focus on the game more and less on mechanics.

It probably depends somewhat on the DM and the style of the campaign. If there are lots of opportunities to rest and lots of one or two encounter adventuring days or very few opportunities to gain advantage then the BM becomea that much more attractive because he can pick when to use his bonus dice while the champion is left relying on luck. But if there are 5+ encounters with no rest and lots of chances at advantagemath favors the champion a lot
more.

Heh, dueling anecdotes are fun. The two champions I've seen in play, my own and one other, are being abandoned like a red headed stepchild. I reworked my character entirely after it was shown that my champion was doing less than HALF the damage of the other three fighter types in the group (even after adjusting for things like magical bonuses) and the other player who took a few levels of champion is dumping it in favour of pretty much anything else.

AFAIC, it's a trap choice. You gain nothing outside of combat besides a half proficiency bonus on a couple of skills and you're dealing less damage than every other fighter type. Woo. Gimme more of that. No one complains that the rogue is more mobile than the assassin because the assassin actually GETS something in return for less mobility.

What is the champion getting in return for doing the least damage of every fighter type?

 

[Miladoon]

The only way to fix 5E is to have every class do 6 damage. Don't roll to hit. Don't apply resistance. Just go in to every encounter and mark off hit points.

Next encounter!

no, wait. Got to have short rest.

Again?

 

[Hussar]

Because snark is the best counter argument here? Sigh.

It's kinda funny. My reworked champion into a Battlemaster doesn't do really much more damage than it did before. But, in exchange for limited damage, now I drop Disadvantage on attackers who choose to attack allies (Goading Attack) or grant bonus HP (Rally) several times per short rest. IOW, my character is dealing almost exactly the same damage, but, now has multiple options every single combat.

That's why I think Champion is a trap option.

 

[Xeviat]

As I've seen, not only does the champion do less damage (Hussar isn't seeing it as much because he chose more utility maneuvers), but it has less tactical options. I'm with everyone else who is saying that if the Champion is going to just be about damage, then they need to actually be good at damage.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

AFAIC, it's a trap choice.

As far as I can tell, you are expecting something from the champion class that it has never claimed itself capable of delivering.

What is the champion getting in return for doing the least damage of every fighter type?

First, they get not actually doing that much less damage than other fighter types. Second, they get simplicity - the actual purpose of the sub-class. Third, they get the rest of their features which make them superior to other fighters in aspects of combat other than dealing damage.

 

[Mouseferatu]

But the whole point of the champion is not to have "multiple options" every single combat. It's the class for the people who don't want to do much more than "roll to hit, roll to damage." It still has a few--action surge, and the like--but giving it more? Defeats the entire purpose.

Now, if you want to argue for a new fighter archetype that has a wider variety of options but doesn't use limited resources like the battlemaster or eldritch knight, there's probably room for that. I'd love to see it. But the champion isn't it, and deliberately so.