D&D 5E Fixing the Champion

[I'm A Banana]

What is the champion getting in return for doing the least damage of every fighter type?

This kind of focus on twit-for-tat is (still) missing the point. What the champion gets on top of what every fighter gets is the ability to do what any fighter does with simplicity. Much like the wild mage gets the ability to do what every sorcerer can do with random tables. And the thief can do what every rogue can do with super mobility. And the abjurer can do what every wizard can do with upped defenses.

If it meets the threshold for DPR that a character needs to hit, it's not a trap choice (those, by definition, are choices that don't work). That'd be like calling the Paladin a "trap choice" because it can't heal like a life cleric. It's not a "trap choice" just because it doesn't have numberwang. Again, with some feeling, "I don't do enough damage" is not the same problem as "I don't do as much damage as other PC's." Showing the latter isn't evidence for the former.

If DPR is what you need in order to feel like you're not screwed, that's fine, and maybe you shouldn't choose the Champion, but not being the princess of DPR doesn't mean it's a bad option.

 

[SmokingSkull]

Well today was a fun session for me, my Champion Fighter got to do some stuff other than combat and it was fun! Matter of fact our group was dealing with a peace negotiation that went south and was about to get bad. However we all worked together and managed to cool the situation so that not only did the negotiations go through but no one got hurt (Well except for the guy who instigated it, but my guy disarmed him of his weapon, grappled him and dragged him away from the fight, then our Tempest Cleric knocked him out) I do plenty of damage when it comes down to it, however damage isn't the end all be all of every situation. I chose Champion for it's simplicity true, but it combines well with GWM and Mobile oddly enough ime. Either way I'm not envious of BM's or EK's (Too many fiddly bits for my taste) or another way of saying it is I don't need magic or maneuvers to outwit my foes cause that's all me, not my class abilities or anything else, just me.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

[MENTION=2067]I'm A Banana[/MENTION], That leads very much to one of my most favoritest quote:

“The only time you look in your neighbor's bowl is to make sure that they have enough. You don't look in your neighbor's bowl to see if you have as much as them.” ― Louis C.K.

I tried to put it in my sig when I joined up here, but I guess it's too long. Oh well...

 

[Tony Vargas]

I think we can all agree that the champion archetype for the fighter is underwhelming and seems a bit nerfed compared to battlemaster and eldritch knight. So, I wanted to think of a way to make the champion just as viable an option as the other two with some homebrew. Here's what I came up with, and feel free to comment/criticize these ideas:

The Champion is an adequate supplier of damage to enemies in a stand-up fight, which is all the 5e fighter real aspires to be, other cute tricks and fiddly bits of other sub-classes notwithstanding. The Champion is just meant to do so simply, which it does.

1. Double the crit threat range increases, so that the first one crits on 18 and the final one crits on 15.

Seems a little crazy, but considering how short 5e combats are, might not be out of line, overall. It was certainly possible to crit on 15 in 3.x, for instance.

2. For remarkable athlete, gain full proficiency bonus to all skills not already proficient in. This will make his athletics actually remarkable, instead of kinda decent.

What about applying whether you're proficient or not? It applies to relatively few skills, and still wouldn't give numbers any higher than you can get with Expertise.

3. Rather than picking an additional fighting style, the champion has two options at that level:
A. You can choose to gain a +1 to AC, gain DR/3 regardless of armor against all damage, including magical.
B. You can choose to gain a +1 to attack rolls and damage when wielding a melee weapon, and your force of will makes these attacks count as magical.

A eclipses a fairly good feat the champion might want early on, adding some build-planning complexity.
B. seems too flat-out supernatural for the Champion.

5) It's not something that sub-classes usually do, but proficiency on all saves would call back the old-school fighter's excellent saves at high level, without requiring tracking another limited-use feature, like Indomitable.

Amusingly (and that's the most an EN poll can be, amusing, they're not very meaningful), in a recent poll asking what class people would play when they just wanted to hit stuff, the Champion came in third behind the Barbarian and that supposedly-complex-fighter, the Battlemaster.

 

[TwoSix]

If DPR is what you need in order to feel like you're not screwed, that's fine, and maybe you shouldn't choose the Champion, but not being the princess of DPR doesn't mean it's a bad option.

I want to change my title to "Princess of DPR".

 

[The Myopic Sniper]

I think they should have either given the Champion the Barbarian's Brutal Critical progression as well or given the Barbarian the expanded crits and make that the critic class as well and find a different way to apply static damage bonuses to the fighter... maybe allow the Champion to apply extra damage to each of their hits like the Barbarians rage bonus damage but ascending higher and getting it more often.

I am not sure how you do this without stepping on the other classes toes unless you rewrite the martial classes from scratch. I really think that Eldritch Knight should have been its own halfcaster d10hd martial class. Maybe Battlemaster and Champion should have been their own classes as well and give them suites of abilities that more match what their strengths and concepts.

I am pretty sure we are going to see a whole range of fan written alternate base classes coming down the pikein the near future. It will be interesting to see how people solve this.

 

[The Myopic Sniper]

Would something like this work for you?

Champion Variant:
3rd Level: Improved Damage, you gain +1 bonus to all weapon damage rolls
7th Level: Remarkable Athlete
10th Level: Bonus Fighting Style
15th Level: Superior Damage, your improved damage bonus becomes +2 to all weapon damage rolls
18th Level: Survivor

Is this too strong? Too weak? Just right?

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

I think they should have either given the Champion the Barbarian's Brutal Critical progression as well or given the Barbarian the expanded crits...

That's what I'd called evidence that you are aiming for a different power scale than 5th edition aims for.

 

[hejtmane]

Would regeneration at 10 be better than the extra fighting style I mean besides defense I could only see a few options used in it's place.

Someone who is a dex build that wants to swap between bow and dex melee weapon not really worth it Str build using the +2 for when they have to use range weapon

Someone making a simple tank they may take protection (Though I say BM is better due to goading, trip, disarm etc)

Regeneration always seem more appealing than the +1 ac to me as a fighter

 

[Hussar]

So if I'm understanding correctly, the trade off for dealing less damage than every other fighter type is simplicity?

See, the thing is, IME the champion is miles behind the other classes, not just slightly. Dealing an extra weapon damage every twenty attacks simply doesn't come close to closing the gap. It can't.