What 5e got wrong

[TheWriterFantastic™]

I kept looking for something to invalidate this admittedly-cheesy tactic, but I didn't find anything in the books I had access to. Are you sure that 99 wasn't the maximum for exceptional Strength, with 19 being non-exceptional and thus perfectly allowed?

I mean, there were a lot of books and I wouldn't be surprised if they contradicted each other in places, but I know that I created a half-orc with Strength 19 when I tried to play Baldur's Gate.

Baldur's Gate was in the 2E era - in 1E, they had capped all scores at 18, especially as listed in racial min/max tables. 2E was a bit more lax on it, especially once all the "Complete" books started releasing.

 

[Maxperson]

It also helped that PC strength scores were still capped at 18, before rolling for Exceptional Strength: scores of 19-25 were outliers to the norm, with assistance from rare items, and not attainable outside of magical assistance. The 19-25 range for scores wasn't even housed in the core books, not appearing until Deities & Demigods, and was solely intended for statting those titular beings, still not PCs.

Not entirely true. The Girdle of Giant Strength in the DMG contained strength ranges up to 24.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[TheWriterFantastic™]

Not entirely true. The Girdle of Giant Strength in the DMG contained strength ranges up to 24.

While it could be assumed and was even implied that the Strength scores represented on the Giant type table for the Girdle was a true equation of score to effect, one could have also inferred that those benefits also came from the corresponding size of the related giant, conferred upon the much smaller wearer to great effect, including the ability to hurl rocks, which had not been included on prior Strength tables, and would not be included in the Deities & Demigods Strength table (example: the Hill Giant Girdle was rated at 19, and conferred to hit and damage bonuses, open doors, weight allowance, rock hurling, and bend bars/lift gates). Deities & Demigods (and it's subsequent printings as Legends & Lore) issued the official ability score tables for 19-25, indicating that those were, in fact the benefits for the corresponding Strength scores, except for the rock hurling ability conferred by the Girdle.

 

[Maxperson]

While it could be assumed and was even implied that the Strength scores represented on the Giant type table for the Girdle was a true equation of score to effect, one could have also inferred that those benefits also came from the corresponding size of the related giant, conferred upon the much smaller wearer to great effect, including the ability to hurl rocks, which had not been included on prior Strength tables, and would not be included in the Deities & Demigods Strength table (example: the Hill Giant Girdle was rated at 19, and conferred to hit and damage bonuses, open doors, weight allowance, rock hurling, and bend bars/lift gates). Deities & Demigods (and it's subsequent printings as Legends & Lore) issued the official ability score tables for 19-25, indicating that those were, in fact the benefits for the corresponding Strength scores, except for the rock hurling ability conferred by the Girdle.

The girdle scores match up to the Deity & Demigods scores, so they were not from size. If you assumed so prior to that book coming out, that would have been reasonable, but also wrong.

 

[Maxperson]

That (like the Rod of Resurrection) is another Gygax-ian weirdness. Both your statement and the one you responded to are true.

The Girdle of Giant Strength was sui generis in the DMG, and had its own strength tables (!) since the core rules didn't allow PCs to exceed 18.* Because Gygax. Every rule had an exception, and the exception would have an exception, which may or may not have a further exception.

It's exceptions all the way down!

*In effect, you had the strength of the corresponding Giant while wearing the belt- not your own. And because those strengths weren't published, they were put in the item description. But the modifiers only worked one way- a giant of that strength did not get the equivalent to hit bonus, but instead received it (built in?) on their Hit Dice increase when attacking, since you looked that up in the attack table. Because PCs get bonuses, hobos don't.

There are a lot of exceptions to the rules, but this particular case matches up to the scores shown in the Deities and Demigods, so it's not really an exception, but rather a preview of what was to come.

 

[sydbar]

I'd also like to add the Critical Role voice actor D&D group moved on from Pathfinder to 5E. That is a fairly well known group of gamers that did not go from 4E to 5E, but from Pathfinder to 5E. They seem to enjoy playing 5E, though I think the only ones that gamed a long time were Matt Mercer and Liam O'brien, and maybe Taliesin Jaffe. They were Pathfinder players prior to 5E. I think one of the best things you can say about 5E is that it is closer to older versions of D&D. That is definitely something 5E got right.

Matt has stated that one of the main reasons he switched to 5E for critical Role because the combats were faster with 8 players.

 

[TheWriterFantastic™]

The girdle scores match up to the Deity & Demigods scores, so they were not from size. If you assumed so prior to that book coming out, that would have been reasonable, but also wrong.

Until explicitly stated in Deities & Demigods, it was was educated conjecture, based on a chart in a magic item description, a general category that repeatedly bent and/or broke the accepted rules at the time. While, yes, in hindsight, it was carried forward to an official table, prior to that it was conjecture at best. In that case, if the DM said different, there weren't official rules to contradict the ruling. Was it a preview of things to come? Almost certainly. Was it most likely the intent to establish those as the score effects? Assuredly. But we keep coming to another certainty: those original rulebooks lacked the clarity and concision to outright say many things.

 

[Maxperson]

Until explicitly stated in Deities & Demigods, it was was educated conjecture, based on a chart in a magic item description, a general category that repeatedly bent and/or broke the accepted rules at the time. While, yes, in hindsight, it was carried forward to an official table, prior to that it was conjecture at best. In that case, if the DM said different, there weren't official rules to contradict the ruling. Was it a preview of things to come? Almost certainly. Was it most likely the intent to establish those as the score effects? Assuredly. But we keep coming to another certainty: those original rulebooks lacked the clarity and concision to outright say many things.

I can agree with that. Back to the 3d6 default. We know it was the default because the other methods listed were explicitly called alternative methods. That means that none of them, 4d6 drop the lowest included, could possibly have been the default. I don't know why Gygax would make the default worse than the primary alternative method, but he did.

 

[Hussar]

Technically, elves can be resurrected, just not with the spell. I direct you to the awesomely useful Rod of Resurrection

Yeah this is what I was confusing with the spell.