D&D 5E Life Cleric Multiclass armor prof

[Ganymede81]

I'm sorry, but like half of the people in this thread, I'm going to have to completely disagree with that position.

Your confidence shows you might have a deeper insight into the rules than I do.

Earlier, I said, "The idea that proficiencies granted by a class feature is not a proficiency "by virtue of being a member of that class" is unsupported in the rules." Your confidence here indicates that you know where to find this distinction in the rules. Could you help me out with a quick page reference so we can clear up this ambiguity?

 

[Ganymede81]

I tend to think of this as different steps. A wizard picks up a level of cleric. They then gain all of the proficiencies granted by multiclassing into cleric. For the next step they choose their subclass, if they choose the life domain they then gain whatever abilities the domain grants, including any proficiencies.

Your "different steps" system for character creation appears to be your own idiosyncrasy in how you build characters, as the rules do not prescribe any specific order for proficiencies gleaned from a single class level, nor does it indicate that a different order would mean anything regarding whether those proficiencies are starting proficiencies.

... if the domain was chosen at 2nd level then would you still think that someone who multiclasses into cleric and then chooses the life domain at cleric level 2 would not gain heavy armour proficiency? What about a sorcerer who multiclasses as bard and at bard 3 chooses valour bard, would they gain the additional proficiencies? If not, then why?

A multiclassed Bard that chose the College of Valor class feature at third level would not be precluded from gaining proficiency in martial weapons.

Why?

The multiclassing rules only apply a limitation on a second or subsequent class' starting proficiencies. If you multiclass into Bard and gain martial weapon proficiency at the third Bard level, you are not gaining a starting proficiency.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Your confidence shows you might have a deeper insight into the rules than I do.

Earlier, I said, "The idea that proficiencies granted by a class feature is not a proficiency "by virtue of being a member of that class" is unsupported in the rules." Your confidence here indicates that you know where to find this distinction in the rules. Could you help me out with a quick page reference so we can clear up this ambiguity?

I'm only about 67% confident on this one, I just haven't seen any new arguments/evidence for a while.

The two statements in the rules that provide the best basis for taking a position are:

1) "When you gain a level in a class other than your first, you gain only some of that class's starting proficiencies, as shown in the Multiclassing Proficiencies table:"

2) "When you gain a new level in a class, you get its features for that level."

Also, the table on PHB p45 is important, because it tells us what the armor and weapon proficiencies are for each class. For cleric, those are light and medium armor, shields, and simple weapons.

It all hinges on whether you consider the (same) list of proficiencies contained in both the table and in the "Proficiencies" section of the class entry to define what a "class's starting proficiencies" are, or whether you consider the "class's starting proficiencies" to refer to any proficiencies a particular character could derive from taking their first level in that class.

Which position is taken will also influence how one reads rule 2 above. From the position that starting proficiencies are defined in those two lists, other features of the class are not starting proficiencies, they are additional class features which are not limited by the multiclassing rules. From the position that they are same thing, that statement is limited by statement 1.

The strength of the defined "class's starting proficiencies" list position is that there are two lists that specifically call out the same list of class proficiencies. Additionally it provides more consistent results between domains--since some domains are significantly better to multiclass into if you can't get the extra proficiencies from the domain. It also maintains a consistent mechanism with the way additional subclass proficiencies can be gained from classes that don't get their subclass at 1st level (it doesn't make sense to me that they intended to nerf the cleric's subclass features simply because they get them at 1st level rather than 2nd or 3rd like most other classes). It also indirectly invokes the rules principle that subclasses always add to, never take away from, your base class, and that they are intended to be something extra and above.*

The strength of the "character could derive it from that class" position appears to me to be that it gets around the weirdness of being able to pick up better armor proficiencies by multiclassing into cleric than into fighter. The position is also tenable because there is no statement in the rules that appears to unambiguously demand either interpretation.

Based on the overall relationship principles between classes and subclasses, I think the defined "class's starting proficiencies" list position make more sense.


*While I haven't seen it brought up anywhere, you could actually play the game without subclasses entirely, and all the rules would still work, as far as I can tell. No class depends on its subclasses (unless I'm forgetting a class feature somewhere).

 

[Ganymede81]

Also, the table on PHB p45 is important, because it tells us what the armor and weapon proficiencies are for each class. For cleric, those are light and medium armor, shields, and simple weapons.

It all hinges on whether you consider the (same) list of proficiencies contained in both the table and in the "Proficiencies" section of the class entry to define what a "class's starting proficiencies" are, or whether you consider the "class's starting proficiencies" to refer to any proficiencies a particular character could derive from taking their first level in that class.

I'm not sure this is definitive, or even particularly helpful, as this issue also appears with skill proficiencies.

The Cleric that selected the Nature Domain class feature gains proficiency in one of three different skills at first level. Functionally, the proficiency in this skill is little different from the two skill proficiencies a first level cleric would choose from the list on page 57.

When you mention the chart on page 45, you merely punt the issue away from weapon and armor proficiencies to skill proficiencies.

 

[Ganymede81]

How about this then. Can anyone show me in the multiclassing rules where it mentions that you do not gain access to subclass features?

One will not find this in the rules because this Class/Subclass dichotomy is not an actual part of the rules. There are no Subclass features whatsoever; there are only class features.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Awakened expertise is not tagged "bonus proficiencies" so it does not count. Blessing of knowledge is also gained at 1st level. If you chose life cleric just to get armor proficiencies and not for the other benefits, then there is really somethibg wrong.

 

[spectacle]

The root of the argument here seems to be that the term "starting proficiencies" is not defined anywhere, so it is impossible to know what it means, and we can argue forever and never reach a conclusion. Does anyone disagree with that?

(My interpretation is that the "starting proficiencies" are meant to be the ones listed on table on page 45 of the PHB and under the "Proficiencies" header in the "Class Features" list at the start of each class description. Proficiencies listed other places should be treated like special cases.)

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Yes we can agree to disagree.

 

[Ganymede81]

If DMs hate multiclassing and want to penalise players by denying them bonus proficiencies granted by a subclass, they can. In the mean time, I'll be over in my game, being right.

Your confidence shows you might have a deeper insight into the rules than I do.

Earlier, I said, "One will not find this in the rules because this Class/Subclass dichotomy is not an actual part of the rules." Your confidence here indicates that the Class/Subclass dichotomy IS in the rules and that you know where to find it. Could you help me out with a quick page reference so we can clear up this ambiguity?

 

[Ovinomancer]

The multiclassing rules state that you when you gain a new level in a class, you get the class features (with the noted exceptions). A domain selection is a class feature. If that class feature grants skill or tool proficiencies, it comes from that class feature and isn't affected by 'starting proficiencies'.

Arguing that you don't get the bonus proficiencies from a class feature selection because they're not on the list of multiclassing starting proficiencies is arguing against what the multiclassing rules say immediately after that list.