Rules Clarification: Rebuke Undead

[Celebrim]

In order to rebuke undead, they have to be within 60'. After they have been rebuked and commanded, the rules say that you can exercise mental control over them. However, the rules do not appear to explicitly specify a distance.

First, is there an official clarification or errata regarding the range of the mental control? Must the undead remain in 60' in order to be commanded? If they leave this command range, do they become uncontrolled again?

Not having a range at all seems like it is prone to abuse and cheese, as giving orders at any distance allows undead to act functionally like missiles and attack targets that are miles away from the PC's positions. You could also use them like command detonated mines, and order them into action from miles away. That at the least doesn't make for interesting gameplay.

Additionally, rebuking undead and spells like 'control undead' don't really specify if they are charms or compulsions. That is all well and good if dealing with mindless undead, but what about something like a ghoul? How much initiative can intelligent undead operating under mental control be expected to take? How intelligently can they be expected to carry out the PC's orders?

 

[Grogg of the North]

Rebuking Undead and Controlling them is a little gray so you and your DM are going to have to work on this collaboratively. I'll do my best to help out, though.

Command and Control Undead are not charm/compulsions since those are part of the enchantment school and mind affecting. Undead are immune to mind affecting abilities.

I've seen it done where once you commanded an undead through rebuking, it's yours forever. And while this may seem cheesy I don't think it's too bad. Consider the requirement for commanding an undead through rebuking. You'd basically have to destroy it if you were turning which means you have twice as many levels as it does HD. At 20th level that means you can control a greater shadow, a CR 8 monster. If you can control it chances are it's much weaker than you and it won't be much use to you as you level up. You'd probably run into something like this:

"I send my commanded ghoul against the hydra!"
"The hydra's many jaws tear it to pieces as it approaches."

As for the range of mental control, I would treat it like dominate person. Once you've established control the range you can exercise it is unlimited. I would also include the caveats that self destructive orders are not carried out and anything against its nature results in a new saving throw (rebuke check?).

I hope this helps!

 

[Celebrim]

Rebuking Undead and Controlling them is a little gray so you and your DM are going to have to work on this collaboratively.

I am the DM.

Command and Control Undead are not charm/compulsions since those are part of the enchantment school and mind affecting. Undead are immune to mind affecting abilities.

Yes, I know. However, charms and compulsions are relatively well defined as to how they work. This isn't formally a 'mind affecting ability' but in practice it is one that is excluded from the Undead's normal immunity to such effects, which is fine, but it leaves it poorly defined.

I've seen it done where once you commanded an undead through rebuking, it's yours forever.

So long as you don't go over some cap on the maximum number of undead you can control, I'm ok with that. If that implies you can have an unlimited number of undead under your control, then that will get out of hand very fast.

Consider the requirement for commanding an undead through rebuking. You'd basically have to destroy it if you were turning which means you have twice as many levels as it does HD. At 20th level that means you can control a greater shadow, a CR 8 monster. If you can control it chances are it's much weaker than you and it won't be much use to you as you level up. You'd probably run into something like this:

"I send my commanded ghoul against the hydra!"
"The hydra's many jaws tear it to pieces as it approaches."

I don't think you are properly appreciating the power this opens up. Many undead have level invariant abilities which are extremely potent even at very high levels. A ghoul is a fairly weak undead that eventually becomes irrelevant because of its low BAB, but even a single ordinary shadow can easily take down a hydra because the shadow is immune to non-magical attacks, is incorporeal and all that implies, and has a strength draining touch attack that drains 1d6 strength with no save. A handful of shadows can easily disable many monsters while expending basically no effort - including your hydra. And they replicate, letting you easily replenish your shadow army.

If control is not limited by range, you could easily send your shadows in as assassins from miles away. This allows PC's to do things otherwise only available as divine salient abilities.

As for the range of mental control, I would treat it like dominate person.

Oh good grief no. That makes it even worse. Dominate person is already pretty darn broken, but at least it is a 6th level spell. Dominate person not only gives you unlimited range for your mental control, but allows you to 'ride' your minions to see what they are doing. You could dominate a few shadows, ride them into a dungeon and overcome most resistance that a mid-level character would face with the greatest ease and perfect safety.

As long as 'rebuke undead' is limited to maneuvering skeletons or zombies about the battlefield (as standard actions) then its not too broken. Even maneuvering ghouls isn't so bad. But many undead have extremely potent abilities that characters would otherwise not have available until very high level. Once you get to the level of sending shadows, ghosts, and wraiths on commando missions on your behalf, this is going to get out of hand really quick.

 

[Grogg of the North]

So long as you don't go over some cap on the maximum number of undead you can control, I'm ok with that. If that implies you can have an unlimited number of undead under your control, then that will get out of hand very fast.

Turn/Rebuke undead states that you can command any number of undead so long as their total HD does not exceed your level. While Turn/Rebuke doesn't say that this counts against the normal 4 x (caster) level, I would think that it's perfectly reasonable to say it does. Pale Master, from Libris Mortis, has abilities that it specifically calls out as not counting against that limit.

I don't think you are properly appreciating the power this opens up. Many undead have level invariant abilities which are extremely potent even at very high levels. A ghoul is a fairly weak undead that eventually becomes irrelevant because of its low BAB, but even a single ordinary shadow can easily take down a hydra because the shadow is immune to non-magical attacks, is incorporeal and all that implies, and has a strength draining touch attack that drains 1d6 strength with no save. A handful of shadows can easily disable many monsters while expending basically no effort - including your hydra. And they replicate, letting you easily replenish your shadow army.

If control is not limited by range, you could easily send your shadows in as assassins from miles away. This allows PC's to do things otherwise only available as divine salient abilities.

Shadows are definitely one of the more powerful examples and are a staple for becoming a minion-mancer. Command one shadow, have it create spawn that it controls, repeat. If you're worried about something like that, I would just remind the group that tactics are a two way street. Send a bunch of shadows at the paladin king and you can expect a bunch of deathless (boo!) coming after you, too. The fact that everything is vague it strikes me that WotC was trying to discourage this play style.

Another thing to consider is what if a commanded undead enters an area that blocks mental control, like a large magic circle. Does the commanded undead become free willed again? Does it lose its will when it leaves the area of suppression?

Oh good grief no. That makes it even worse. Dominate person is already pretty darn broken, but at least it is a 6th level spell. Dominate person not only gives you unlimited range for your mental control, but allows you to 'ride' your minions to see what they are doing. You could dominate a few shadows, ride them into a dungeon and overcome most resistance that a mid-level character would face with the greatest ease and perfect safety.

As long as 'rebuke undead' is limited to maneuvering skeletons or zombies about the battlefield (as standard actions) then its not too broken. Even maneuvering ghouls isn't so bad. But many undead have extremely potent abilities that characters would otherwise not have available until very high level. Once you get to the level of sending shadows, ghosts, and wraiths on commando missions on your behalf, this is going to get out of hand really quick.

I don't think I'd allow a rebuking cleric to gain the full sensory input, like dominate person. I just thought it was a good way to find something similar and make judgements from there. Command Undead is closer to a Charm spell than anything else which is why I didn't use that.

If evil undead are typically employed in commando raids, would the world have adjusted for that? Would a goodly king have his keep warded against them?

I checked Libris Mortis for what it had to say on Turn/Rebuke Undead. It's advice was "don't".