D&D 5E Is the stat system biased against front-liners?

[FrogReaver]

It seems to me that the stat system is actively biased against the front line combat types.

A fighter-type has to concentrate on Str, Dex, and Con to perform well in the combat pillar of the game. Paladins also need Cha. This leaves little space, especially in a point-buy campaign, for decent stats in the social pillar of the game. Rear-rankers need only one good stat - Int for Wizards, Wis for clerics, Cha for Sorcerors and warlocks, etc - to excel at the combat pillar and these are coincidentally the prime stats for the social and investigative pillars of the game. Sure you can take feats or put ASIs into bad stats, but that doesn't actually solve the problem.

I mean, how often do we see Int 8-10, Wis 8-10 Paladins? How often do we see a fighter with Int 14? It seems to me that to be a good fighter it's very difficult to be good at the social pillar.

Or am I missing something?

Wizards want high int, con, dex
Druids want high wis, con, dex
Clerics want high wis, con
Fighters want high str and con or high dex and con
Paladins want high str, con, cha, or high dex, con, cha
Barbarians want high str, con, dex
Rogues want high dex and con
Monks want high dex, wis, con

Almost every class wants 3 high stats except fighters and rogues.

So no, I'd say the stat system is actually more biased toward casters than front liners.

 

[ExploderWizard]

It doesn't matter if its biased or not, because rear-rankers need their frontline brethren in the game regardless.

If it really mattered all that much... then every player would want to play a rear-ranker. But if that was the case, then every rear-ranker would get attacked all the time because no one was up front to draw the attacks and they'd always get killed. Since we usually don't see those parties existing, it means then that some players want to play in the front line just to be able to take those attacks and it then no longer matters if those classes aren't "better" that the rear line.

A player might say to themselves "Wow, look at all the stuff I get to do as a rear-ranker both in and out of combat! I'm going to be one of those!". And then when every other member of the group decides on the same exact thing, and the party then gets TPK'd their first or second time out... the player realizes that "getting to do all that stuff" means nothing if you're dead. And perhaps they find that not being dead with a frontline PC with "less stuff" is actually more fun than a rear-ranker with a lot of "stuff" they can't use because they are.

4 DPS LFG Need tank

Wizards want high int, con, dex
Druids want high wis, con, dex
Clerics want high wis, con
Fighters want high str and con or high dex and con
Paladins want high str, con, cha, or high dex, con, cha
Barbarians want high str, con, dex
Rogues want high dex and con
Monks want high dex, wis, con

Almost every class wants 3 high stats except fighters and rogues.

So no, I'd say the stat system is actually more biased toward casters than front liners.

Any rogue that isn't interested in a decent WIS isn't interested in a decent life expectancy.

A trap finder with a crappy perception rarely gets to retire.

 

[FrogReaver]

I didn't know trap finder was a class?

Initiative is highly overrated.

Being up close allows for opportunity attacks and more maneuvers than being at range.

A prone enemy for example gives disadvantage to ranged attacks but advantage for melee.

4 DPS LFG Need tank



Any rogue that isn't interested in a decent WIS isn't interested in a decent life expectancy.

A trap finder with a crappy perception rarely gets to retire.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I didn't know trap finder was a class?

A class? Its more than that, its the toughest job you'll ever love.

 

[dmnqwk]

Any rogue that isn't interested in a decent WIS isn't interested in a decent life expectancy. A trap finder with a crappy perception rarely gets to retire.

A Level 20 Rogue with a Wisdom of 10 and Expertise in it has a guaranteed 22 (+6 doubled, minimum of 10 on the D20 roll) so this is an unfortunate mistake some people make.
Even a Level 1 can have a 14 Passive Perception from Expertise and a Wisdom of 10, so I don't think it's necessary to insist people have a high wisdom, unless you're also prepared to demand they simply MUST take Expertise in Perception, and Observant as a feat etc.

 

[ExploderWizard]

It doesn't matter if its biased or not, because rear-rankers need their frontline brethren in the game regardless.

If it really mattered all that much... then every player would want to play a rear-ranker. But if that was the case, then every rear-ranker would get attacked all the time because no one was up front to draw the attacks and they'd always get killed. Since we usually don't see those parties existing, it means then that some players want to play in the front line just to be able to take those attacks and it then no longer matters if those classes aren't "better" that the rear line.

A player might say to themselves "Wow, look at all the stuff I get to do as a rear-ranker both in and out of combat! I'm going to be one of those!". And then when every other member of the group decides on the same exact thing, and the party then gets TPK'd their first or second time out... the player realizes that "getting to do all that stuff" means nothing if you're dead. And perhaps they find that not being dead with a frontline PC with "less stuff" is actually more fun than a rear-ranker with a lot of "stuff" they can't use because they are.

A Level 20 Rogue with a Wisdom of 10 and Expertise in it has a guaranteed 22 (+6 doubled, minimum of 10 on the D20 roll) so this is an unfortunate mistake some people make.
Even a Level 1 can have a 14 Passive Perception from Expertise and a Wisdom of 10, so I don't think it's necessary to insist people have a high wisdom, unless you're also prepared to demand they simply MUST take Expertise in Perception, and Observant as a feat etc.

It isn't a must have, it is desirable. Much like any other stat. A rogue might like to have an 18 DEX but a 15 may be the best available.

 

[Horwath]

A Level 20 Rogue with a Wisdom of 10 and Expertise in it has a guaranteed 22 (+6 doubled, minimum of 10 on the D20 roll) so this is an unfortunate mistake some people make.
Even a Level 1 can have a 14 Passive Perception from Expertise and a Wisdom of 10, so I don't think it's necessary to insist people have a high wisdom, unless you're also prepared to demand they simply MUST take Expertise in Perception, and Observant as a feat etc.

A rogue of 1st level should aim at dex 16 and 14 wis. all other abilities are at personal preferance.

ofc expertise in stealth and perception.

you job is to be forward scout and to give information.

That requires you to be able to see and hear good and not to be seen or heard in the meantime.

observant feat is a nice choice. remember even with darkvision you have -5 passive perception penalty.

 

[Curmudjinn]

I think the health/damage system is far more biased than stats.
Many attacks, in other systems, would be shrugged off by front-liners. Whereas D&D just keeps eating HP which adds up quickly at low-to-mid levels.
Con Saves to simply avoid or take-half of a certain amount of damage would do front-liners a service.

Damage equal to or under your Con Mod? Make a passive con save to ignore. Damage equal to or less than your Con(or half your Con) to take half damage. Etc.

Of course, conditions pretty much end front-liners without magical help.

 

[Quartz]

Wizards want high int,

Indeed, but we're looking at need, not want.

 

[lowkey13]

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