D&D 5E Design Debate: 13th-level PCs vs. 6- to 8-Encounter Adventuring Day

[Azurewraith]

Ill be starting up in an hour 3players down so I'm running 2pcs. Should be interesting

 

[Celtavian]

Ill be starting up in an hour 3players down so I'm running 2pcs. Should be interesting

Do you have all the encounters? Or you running the first three?

 

[Azurewraith]

Do you have all the encounters? Or you running the first three?

First 3

 

[Azurewraith]

Bad night for dice after encounter 2 not going well full report to come in morning

 

[Celtavian]

Bad night for dice after encounter 2 not going well full report to come in morning

I'm interested in reading. This fight was easier than I expected with the bard winning initiative. Once the gnome was able to move forward and start countering, their abilities were neutralized.

 

[Flamestrike]

When do you roll for initiative?

When the DM declares combat begins.

At least one side has to be aware of the other, and there has to be something happening for people to react to (hence the Dex check).

Flamestrike,

I'm going to need to know the distance down the hallway from Encounter 2. One death slaad ran to lead the party into the golem. He managed to escape. We need to follow him down the tunnel. How far to the next area.

60' to the next encounter area.

The Slaadi know of the Golem - its friendly to them (the corrupted elemental spirit of Tharizdun knows that these Slaadi are on the same side) and does not attack them. The Slaadi also know that the Golem is healed by fire, and catch it in fireballs if possible to heal it and harm the party.

Stealth is out the window if the party or Slaad get into the next room or within 30' of it. The Golem automatically hears the combat (fireballs and clash of steel and screaming) and charges down from the side passage it patrols entering the room the round after any combatant gets within 30' of the next encounter area. Roll initiative for it at this time, and it is placed in the next room at the eastern entrance (25' from the exit to the PCs). It uses its move (plus bonus action dash if necessary) to close with the party then attacks. The Slaadi then fireball it seeking to capture it and as many PCs as possible in the blast.

By the way, your encounters (while detailed) are going a bit differently from how I would have run them! The Slaadi would have heard the party enter and fireballed (twice) on round 1.

Bad night for dice after encounter 2 not going well full report to come in morning

I look forward to hearing it.

I'll be posting the next encounter when peeps catch up to the golem.

 

[Celtavian]

When the DM declares combat begins.

At least one side has to be aware of the other, and there has to be something happening for people to react to (hence the Dex check).



60' to the next encounter area.

The Slaadi know of the Golem - its friendly to them (the corrupted elemental spirit of Tharizdun knows that these Slaadi are on the same side) and does not attack them. The Slaadi also know that the Golem is healed by fire, and catch it in fireballs if possible to heal it and harm the party.

Stealth is out the window if the party or Slaad get into the next room or within 30' of it. The Golem automatically hears the combat (fireballs and clash of steel and screaming) and charges down from the side passage it patrols entering the room the round after any combatant gets within 30' of the next encounter area. Roll initiative for it at this time, and it is placed in the next room at the eastern entrance (25' from the exit to the PCs). It uses its move (plus bonus action dash if necessary) to close with the party then attacks. The Slaadi then fireball it seeking to capture it and as many PCs as possible in the blast.

By the way, your encounters (while detailed) are going a bit differently from how I would have run them! The Slaadi would have heard the party enter and fireballed (twice) on round 1.

They did fireball twice on round 1. It's in the description and noted on their resource list. The bard wasn't surprised and ran forward into counterspell range after activating her gem of seeing. I ran it exactly as you recommended other than moving one slaad up 60 feet to avoid being surprised.

Even if you had ran it as you did, it would have happened exactly the same way if the bard won initiative.

Bard wins initiative. Action to activate gem of seeing. She sees both invisible slaad. Move forward into counterspell range. Counter one fireball. That is how it would have went. You yourself know you you can't ready an action outside of combat. You discussed this with Hemlock. The slaad can't either. They don't get to fireball without rolling initiative. If the bard wins, she has enough time to activate the gem, move forward into counterspell range, and defeat one of the fireballs. That is exactly what she did.

There were two fireballs in round one, one countered by the bard. As far as the rest of the encounter, i tried to have the slaad cast cloudkill, but by that time the wizard had moved up to counterspell range. Then I had the slaad move to kill the wizard. At 60 feet away, that is two moves to kill the soft target wizard and bard. By that time the cleric and paladin have closed on them and the EK has taken half their hit points.

That's why I always wonder why so many DMs make it seem to easy to hit casters. Damage is fast in this game. You only have a round or two to try to close the distance and kill casters. Most monsters have to spend a double move when they start far away meaning no attacks while some ranged party members are destroying them with Sharpshooter, eldritch blast, and other spells.

 

[Flamestrike]

They did fireball twice on round 1. It's in the description and noted on their resource list. The bard wasn't surprised and ran forward into counterspell range after activating her gem of seeing. I ran it exactly as you recommended other than moving one slaad up 60 feet to avoid being surprised.

Even if you had ran it as you did, it would have happened exactly the same way if the bard won initiative.

Bard wins initiative. Action to activate gem of seeing. She sees both invisible slaad. Move forward into counterspell range. Counter one fireball. That is how it would have went. You yourself know you you can't ready an action outside of combat. You discussed this with Hemlock. The slaad can't either. They don't get to fireball without rolling initiative. If the bard wins, she has enough time to activate the gem, move forward into counterspell range, and defeat one of the fireballs. That is exactly what she did.

There were two fireballs in round one, one countered by the bard. As far as the rest of the encounter, i tried to have the slaad cast cloudkill, but by that time the wizard had moved up to counterspell range. Then I had the slaad move to kill the wizard. At 60 feet away, that is two moves to kill the soft target wizard and bard. By that time the cleric and paladin have closed on them and the EK has taken half their hit points.

Im not saying they could ready an action outside of combat beginning.

My suggestion was more along the lines of the tactics of the party leading into the encounter seem to be optimised for the encounter itself. Its almost as if this party knew there were invisible Slaadi waiting in ambush on the other side of a dimensional portal, and sent the best PCs through who just happened to be equipped with the right tools for the job for the encounter.

Probably unavoidable given the fact the encounter is known before it begins.

Im not suggesting you're intentionally metagaming the encounter mind you; just that I feel it would go down differently in actual play (with things happening all at once, a few secret rolls by the DM to put you off, only getting a few seconds on your turn to decide what to do and declare an action etc).

With the Bard running forward holding a gem of seeing (revealing them), the Slaadi may very well have chosen a different action in anticipation of the players tactics. Such as both dropping Cloudkill spells on turn 1 instead of dropping Fireballs (forcing the use of a 5th level slot to counter).

The monsters are a little bit 'locked in' with their tactics, and the PCs are free to kind of work around them as a result.

That's why I always wonder why so many DMs make it seem to easy to hit casters. Damage is fast in this game. You only have a round or two to try to close the distance and kill casters. Most monsters have to spend a double move when they start far away meaning no attacks while some ranged party members are destroying them with Sharpshooter, eldritch blast, and other spells.

I dont know if youve noticed, but the encounters and monsters have been designed with this in mind (ranged attacks, smaller environments, bonus action dash, high movement speed, surrounding the party etc).

Encounter design isnt just statting up monsters and leaving it there. Its having an overview and a level of control over all aspects of the encounter (and where it sits in the AD as a whole).

 

[Celtavian]

Im not saying they could ready an action outside of combat beginning.

My suggestion was more along the lines of the tactics of the party leading into the encounter seem to be optimised for the encounter itself. Its almost as if this party knew there were invisible Slaadi waiting in ambush on the other side of a dimensional portal, and sent the best PCs through who just happened to be equipped with the right tools for the job for the encounter.

Probably unavoidable given the fact the encounter is known before it begins.

Im not suggesting you're intentionally metagaming the encounter mind you; just that I feel it would go down differently in actual play (with things happening all at once, a few secret rolls by the DM to put you off, only getting a few seconds on your turn to decide what to do and declare an action etc).

With the Bard running forward holding a gem of seeing (revealing them), the Slaadi may very well have chosen a different action in anticipation of the players tactics. Such as both dropping Cloudkill spells on turn 1 instead of dropping Fireballs (forcing the use of a 5th level slot to counter).

The monsters are a little bit 'locked in' with their tactics, and the PCs are free to kind of work around them as a result.

Why would you think this? The party went in at the same time with the tanks in front. You gave the bard the gem of seeing. Why wouldn't she use it if she noticed invisible targets in the gloom? Wouldn't the DM be metagaming if he changed to cloudkill based on one character being able to react? I don't see how five of six characters being surprised is prepared for the encounter. I would say they were rather unprepared.

I feel as though I ran it as you would have run it. Had you told me in game that I saw invisible targets in the gloom, I would have used my gem of seeing moving into 60 foot range not only to counterspell, but also to cutting words. Maybe the slaad could have run at her, but they still would have needed a double move to close the distance giving the party time to set up. The way you set them up made it very easy to set up as I did.

Now I do think with different players playing each character tactics would have been less optimal as we saw with Bold Italic doing what he wanted to do versus what I wanted to do. I could agree that multiple players making decisions would affect things. Had I been playing the bard, I would have done what I did. The entire reason I build for hit points and Con is to survive.

I don't think how the encounter was DMed was suboptimal at all. I don't freak out over secret rolls. You would have had to tell the bard she saw the slaad. Would you have really considered 5 of 6 characters surprised a failure on your part? If the bard runs forward, you would metagame changing to cloudkill even though they have no idea the bard can counterspell?

DMing online hurt play in the part you ran due to the inability to give us a clear map showing exactly where everyone was standing. It showed up very differently once I mapped it. There's no way you could have spaced the giants attacking the cleric and paladin while avoiding hypnotic pattern. Just like the placement of the slaad seemed good on paper. Once you see it mapped and in play, their placement is more advantageous to the players. The PCs can move 10 feet to be in counterspell range. The slaad are a double move away from melee combat. The PCs can do more damage than both the slaad together with the archer who can see the same distance once they're visible.

I dont know if youve noticed, but the encounters and monsters have been designed with this in mind (ranged attacks, smaller environments, bonus action dash, high movement speed, surrounding the party etc).

Encounter design isnt just statting up monsters and leaving it there. Its having an overview and a level of control over all aspects of the encounter (and where it sits in the AD as a whole).

But that doesn't help the monsters necessarily. This is an odd understanding of movement in D&D. For example, an iron golem that has melee in his way doesn't get to move past them. Same as giants don't get to move past a huge giant ape. Tight quartes allow for the PCs to seal the enemies from attacking the casters easier. We maneuver to seal off attack all the time, which is why the dodge action human crowd control works. It's made for tight quarters in dungeons and rooms. Wide open spaces with highly mobile creatures are much harder to defend against than tight quarters. Tight quarters allow the Pcs to funnel the monsters and NPCs to the targets they want.

If you had set us up in a huge cave with little cover where we had to find a way to get to the giants while they bombard us with rocks, that would have been a pain in the behind.

 

[Flamestrike]

DMing online hurt play in the part you ran due to the inability to give us a clear map showing exactly where everyone was standing. It showed up very differently once I mapped it. There's no way you could have spaced the giants attacking the cleric and paladin while avoiding hypnotic pattern.

Seeing as it was run in ToTM, it worked just fine and dandy.

Just like the placement of the slaad seemed good on paper. Once you see it mapped and in play, their placement is more advantageous to the players. The PCs can move 10 feet to be in counterspell range. The slaad are a double move away from melee combat. The PCs can do more damage than both the slaad together with the archer who can see the same distance once they're visible.

After the Slaadi see a fireball get counterspelled on turn 1, on turn 2 (remember the PCs are surprised on turn 1, and all PCs have disadvantage on ranged attacks due to the gloom) they both sit back and drown the PCs in cloudkills on turn 2. All PC's take 10d8 poison damage and are trapped down a dead end coriddor, with zero visibility inside two cloud kills.

Your move.

But that doesn't help the monsters necessarily. This is an odd understanding of movement in D&D. For example, an iron golem that has melee in his way doesn't get to move past them. Same as giants don't get to move past a huge giant ape.

Yes, they do. The Golem can quite easily overrun (Str athletics) or shove a creature prone, keep moving then use the bonus slam I gave it to bash something. Or just breathe poison gas on the party.

It also depends on where the party wind up. They race into the room following a Slaadi, and at the start of next turn a Golem gets placed at the eastern exit. It rolls well on initiaitve, and its on them before they can fall back and block the coridoor.

The Giants can simply step over medium sized creatures, or around the ape seeing as theyre in a huge chamber.

Tight quartes allow for the PCs to seal the enemies from attacking the casters easier. We maneuver to seal off attack all the time, which is why the dodge action human crowd control works.

It only works because your DM allows it to work. I would quite happily ignore the PC dodging (and move some mooks up to pin him down) and move to the squishy targets at the back. I also use a lot of monsters with SLA.

You're dodging? Cool bro - fireball.

Tight quarters allow the Pcs to funnel the monsters and NPCs to the targets they want.

Why cant monsters use the same tactics? I assure you as DM, I would.

Tell you what - Im NOT going to post the next encounter after the Golem. I'll run your party through it personally instead.

Lets see how it plays out shall we?