D&D 5E (2014) Design Debate: 13th-level PCs vs. 6- to 8-Encounter Adventuring Day

[BoldItalic]

I already have my party's tactics for moving in. Rogue and Ranger with wolf companion going in first with stealth. Followed a round later by the fighter and casters. I haven't rolled it out yet, and I'm trying to decide how it will work.

The Rogue moves up the left side first (higher initiative) trying to spot the creatures she knows is there because of her high hearing perception. Once she get's within 60' they are in range of her darkvision, but she is also in range of their darkvision and blindsight. So do they see her automatically? Or do they have to make a Perception check?

At this point the rogue's stealth check is a minimum of 25 and her perception is at least 22. So even without rolling she should beat the Slaadi's own perception and stealth.

My way of DMing is probably not a good guide, but to my way of thinking, they automatically see her as she enters the 60ft range. She isn't hiding because there is nothing in the room to hide behind, and the slaadi aren't distracted or inattentive so there is no reason why they shouldn't see her approaching. They can see her, so they do see her. She completes the move and when the slaad's turn comes up, they can act on the basis of having seen her.

After the Slaadi's turns the Ranger goes and moves up with her wolf. She and her wolf also has ridiculous stealth and perception checks.

Again, I would play it that you can't hide if there is nothing to hide behind and stealthy movement is only possible if the slaadi are distracted somehow and are paying attention to something else.

The following round would be Rogue, Slaads, then the rest of the party with the Ranger in the middle somewhere. So what would the Slaads do? Throw fireballs? At who and when? When would they throw Cloudkill?

I think it would depend on where everyone is. If the PCs are clustered together and a fireball would catch most of them, a fireball from each slaadi would be sensible. The radius of a fireball fills the width of the room but not the length. If the PCs move along opposite walls and don't exactly line up, a single fireball won't catch everyone. Otherwise one of the slaadi might use cloudkill and the other a fireball. Cloudkill has the disadvantage, for them, that they can't see through it either but if it forces the PCs forward into melee range and bunches them up, that may be more favourable to the slaadi anyway. Assume the slaadi do whatever is most inconvenient to the PCs

 

[Radaceus]

Flamestrike I hope you will please continue to post the rest of the encounters. I am still waiting to test run it, but wont have time yet.

I did set up the initial encounters on roll20, and attempted to roll it out, but found myself over-thinking and trying not to be impartial to much, I felt this manner of testing does not do any justice to the attempt, that real bodies need to be behind the PCs and a DM refereeing.

which brings to point of Celtavian crying foul as the wheels come off his crash test dummy...

Celtavian, this is an end of the world is nigh encounter set up to test your optimized PCs, the DM stated some odd effects of the singularity, i'e, the dark and dimmed light, or gloominess which exceeds normality. This should be taken as a Lair encounter, and said effects are due to that. As well as, you are upset because the DM has optimized the encounters ( BTW, I found no issue with the size of the cavern when i gridded it in roll20 and placed the tokens appropriately) to test your optimized PCs, perhaps it is not textbook, and, maybe even, its beyond what you and your group of optimizers play in...that is, the world is finite and everything neatly explained and fit into RNG parameter, might as well play Squad Leader. Do you make the rulings on everything and your DM justs rolls dice and moves miniatures? I hope not, how boring that would be!

 

[Radaceus]

The following round would be Rogue, Slaads, then the rest of the party with the Ranger in the middle somewhere. So what would the Slaads do? Throw fireballs? At who and when? When would they throw Cloudkill?

I believe Flamestrike mentioned that the Slaadi would cloudkill the front ranks if pressed. I agree with this.

1st round fireball, and though they are confident warriors, they are crafty and cunning, and would draw the party towards the iron golem before being over run. obviously this all depends on initiative. But cludkill would help them in that evading of being flanked

 

[Flamestrike]

Of course I realize that--I specifically called it out. What it doesn't have is two separate bonus actions. If you spend your bonus action on Dash, you can't also spend it on overrun.



Flamestrike, you need to put your ego down and stop thinking that everything is about you. Sometimes it's okay to say, "Okay, thanks for the correction" and move on. Don't turn everything into a personal war. You can even say, "That's not what I meant. I expect the PCs to be close enough that you don't need to Dash in order to hit the back line," and then at least everybody knows that there's no disagreement over the (important) rules but only over the (unimportant) physical details of the scenario.

Unimportant because it is easy for readers to judge for themselves whether it would apply at their own tables; whereas misinformation about the rules can lead people astray for a long time. After all, this thread is fundamentally about the rules and whether they work in the general case.

What are you on abut? The Golem can dash or make a slam as a bonus action. Meaning it can overrun and dash. Or dash and overrun.

You're wrong. Go back and read the encounter.

Youre adding nothing to this thread and no one wants you posting in it. Please cut it out.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

FlameStrike, you're claiming one of either two things:

(1) Iron Golem can use its action to Overrun, and its bonus action to Dash, thus ending with no attacks.
(2) Iron Golem can use its bonus action to Dash, its movement to Overrun, and its action to attack the back line casters.

#2 is against the rules.

#1 is a pointless waste of a round that would be better spent breathing toxic gas. Are you really suggesting that the Iron Golem should overrun instead of attacking the front-line tank and/or breathing toxic gas on everybody? Or are you still just not getting how Overrun works, and you think that #2 is possible?

 

[Flamestrike]

FlameStrike, you're claiming one of either two things:

(1) Iron Golem can use its action to Overrun, and its bonus action to Dash, thus ending with no attacks.
(2) Iron Golem can use its bonus action to Dash, its movement to Overrun, and its action to attack the back line casters.

#2 is against the rules.

#1 is a pointless waste of a round that would be better spent breathing toxic gas. Are you really suggesting that the Iron Golem should overrun instead of attacking the front-line tank and/or breathing toxic gas on everybody? Or are you still just not getting how Overrun works, and you think that #2 is possible?

You seem to forget that the golem can also split its movement. So it can move, overrun, move (slam or dash).

And you may think it's a waste of a turn. I don't run my monsters that way. Or my characters for that matter. If it makes sense for the monster to 'bash a PC to the side' instead of attacking then that's what it does.

That said, I don't want to discuss how to play monsters with you. Just to clarify that the Golem can (if it wants) move, overrun, move and bash/dash.

I'm happy for you to post here, but please be civil with your questions and stop being snarky and acting like a tool. Thanks mate.

 

[Flamestrike]

Gloom only gives disadvantage on Perception checks.

A given area might be lightly or heavily obscured. In a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.

Only darkness or invisibility give Disadvantage on ranged attacks. You indicated that Darkvision worked. There was no reason to believe it gave disadvantage on ranged attack rolls. Why do you think this?

Im aware of this, but I dont see darkness as a binary [dark/ dim] thing. Its entirely reasonable that it could be so dim to be almost dark [limiting vision and ranged attacks even further], or shadowy without being dim [no bonus to stealth checks, but reduced visual range].

I could also impose perception checks to locate something in darkness, or dexterity checks to avoid tripping over when in it, and the rules are quiet on those aspects.

If youre intrested, here is some text from the recent adventure from WoTC:

"Barovian daylight is bright light, yet it isn’t considered sunlight for the purpose of effects and vulnerabilities, such as a vampire’s, tied to sunlight."

I expect you to write in to WoTC with a formal complaint about this 'incorrect use of sunlight'.

As DM (in particular as DM of a rules light 5E game) it is my absolute perogative to include conditions like this. It's encouraged within the ruleset we are using. Rulings, not rules. The RAW in the DMG is clear on this, as is the RAI by the devs. Heck, the recent adventure released by WoTC themselves contains a similar 'changing of the goal posts' ruling onlight. The rules 'exist' in skeleton form only - many skill uses, environmental conditions and rulings on the fly are made by the DM. In a consistent, fun and fair manner.

See also: My ruling that you could run to the Mountain with a [Con] Atheltics check.

Trying to lob a fireball under a 1 inch gap in a wall of force might require a ranged spell attack roll to land it properly. Trying to richocet a thrown weapon or arrow to hit someone in cover, might be ruled as requiring an intelligence check to judge the angle correctly. Or whatever. The PHB doesnt cover all possible situations or environments, and as DM, I am required to make rulings as needed to challenge, engage and reward my players injenuity.

Thats what I interpret the DMG to expressly tell me to do. You dont like it, find another DM.

Go for it. But make sure you follow the rules. I'm beginning to see a trend here. Your knowledge of the rules is sketchy. You don't seem to follow rules like squeezing and you think dim light (gloom) gives disadvantage on ranged attacks. I did not see any indication of that. You said it reduced sight to dim light and infravision to dim light. Only total lack of visibility gives disadvantage on attacks of any kind, ranged or melee.

I know the rules. You'll note that this is magical gloom, which is a little different than normal dim light (its interaction with darkvision and so forth). This was an intentional feature of the demiplane, and designed to both surprise and challenge the players.

neglected to put it in the encounter conditions

Youre right, so I did. That being the case, I'll ignore it for the rest of the adventure.

Please, ensure you are following the rules in the PHB when running encounters. If you do not, you completely remove your credibility as a DM in this test.

I am following the rules. Including the golden rule of 5E: Rulings not rules.

I tip my hat to you for an excellent idea for an adventure.

Thank you.

I've thought about it some. I'm going to leave this to the rest of you.

I'll save you the trouble.

If at my table I experienced the level of rules lawyering and obstructionist gaming from a player as youve demonstrated here, I would have slapped it down before your PCs hit 2nd level. Politely at first, via a man to man chat with you, and then if that didnt work by simply uninviting you to the game.

Ive really tried mate. I tried to create a fun and challenging adventure with intresting encounters, and a ton of flavor for you to engage in and have fun. Like a DM is supposed to do. You've instead spent most of it being intentionally obstructive (at first) to devolving into a bickering rules lawyer who accepts rulings in his favor (run to the mountain) without blinking, but has a tantrum about a ruling not in his favor (the effects of magical gloom in the demiplane).

I'll continue to post the encounters, but unfortunately our in game relationship has broken down beyond the point of recovery. You have no faith in me as DM and clearly dont respect my rulings. On the same level, I have absolutely no faith in you as a player, and wouldnt want you at my table (and again, from the soudns of it you wouldnt want to be there either).

Im trying to create intresting, fun and engaging challenges for you to immerse yourself in, and youre simply just not buying in. Its unfortunate, because those that are buying in are enjoying themselves immensely.

Far from an example of 'why the 6-8 AD doesnt work', this is instead an example of how an intentionally obstructionist and rules lawyering player can ruin the fun of others, including other readers of this thread who are not participating. Its an example of why trusting your DMs rulings and realising the game isnt all about you, but a collective of [players and DM] getting together to create a shared experience.

Ive had enough of it frankly, and I've tried on several occasions to have a civil chat about it with you but this seems to have fallen on deaf ears. Enjoy your gaming elsewhere, and no hard feelings.

Celtavian, this is an end of the world is nigh encounter set up to test your optimized PCs, the DM stated some odd effects of the singularity, i'e, the dark and dimmed light, or gloominess which exceeds normality. This should be taken as a Lair encounter, and said effects are due to that. As well as, you are upset because the DM has optimized the encounters ( BTW, I found no issue with the size of the cavern when i gridded it in roll20 and placed the tokens appropriately) to test your optimized PCs, perhaps it is not textbook, and, maybe even, its beyond what you and your group of optimizers play in...that is, the world is finite and everything neatly explained and fit into RNG parameter, might as well play Squad Leader. Do you make the rulings on everything and your DM justs rolls dice and moves miniatures? I hope not, how boring that would be!

My thoughts exactly. Sadly we're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole here. Not that I am saying its objectively badwrongfun the way Celtivan plays. If that how he enjoys his home game, then more luck to him. My personal view is that we have radically different playstyles when we play, and behaviour that I find abhorrent (rules lawyering, obstructionist playing, metagaming) is par for the course at his table, whereas behaviour that he finds abhorrent (Rulings not rules, trusting the DM, improvisation, active as opposed to passive DMing) is par for the course at mine. Ive tried to explain that even despite these diffrerences, I am the DM and my rulings are final, but not even this has worked. He's elected to leave the game, as is his right and I wish him all the best in his home game.

Seeing as this whole experiment started flowing from his proposition that a 6-8 [medium-hard] encounter AD cant challenge high level players, and from my counter argument that it can, Im not surprised he's been rather combatative and obstructionist from the get go.

That said, if you read the paragraph above that I adressed to Celtivan, its now a moot point. We've gone our seperate ways to enjoy the game as we like to play it in our own lives.

Flamestrike I hope you will please continue to post the rest of the encounters. I am still waiting to test run it, but wont have time yet.

Will do mate. I'll post the next few when I get home tonight.

 

[Lord Twig]

Finally played out the second encounter on a grid. It was done in 3 rounds.

So Nightflower the rogue and Bel the ranger with her wolf companion move into the room and realize they are not alone. Start combat.

Spells active:
Bel: Pass without Trace

Round 1:
Nightflower the rogue moves up. The Slaads don't see her at first, but thanks to their invisibility and blindsense Nightflower walks into their view before she realizes it.

Slaads throw Fireballs. Nightflower is off to one side, but there is no reason not to fill the room as much as possible and they still hit Bel and Cooper. They do nothing to Nightflower, singe Bel and almost destroy Cooper. (Animal Companions need serious help.) Bel makes two concentration saves to keep spell.

Bel moves forward takes and takes a couple shots with her bow while Cooper retreats into the far corner and dodges (bonus action from Bel).

Round 2:
Nightflower attacks but does little (6) damage since no Sneak Attack.

Slaad regenerates the 6 damage.
Slaads throw two more Fireballs. Nightflower rolls a 1 against one of them and Bel takes half from both again. (Both have +10 Dex saves.) Bel makes two concentration saves to keep spell.

Bel moves up to melee and attacks for 18 damage.

The rest of the party appear in the room and dash forward at the sound of combat. Ceric up the right side, Malloren up the left and Fred up the middle as planned.

Round 3:
Nightflower attacks with her bow again, but this time does 32 damage because the Slaad is in combat.

Slaad heals 10 damage.
Slaads both cast Cloudkill. They get everyone except the Ceric and Cooper in the area. Ceric Counterspells the first one using a 3rd level slot (with +10 to the counterspell roll). Despite excellent Con saves (except for Nightflower) 3 out of 4 characters fail against the second Cloudkill. Bel makes a concentration save to keep spell.

Fred hits the damaged Slaad twice more (missing once) for another 26 damage.

Ceric, recognizing outsiders when he sees them, casts Banishment from a 5th level slot at both Slaads. Even with advantage they failed the DC18 Cha save with their +3 mod.

Battle over.

Aftermath:
Rogue took 31 damage.
Ranger took 70 damage.
Animal Companion took 41 damage.
Cleric took 19 damage.
Wizard used a 3rd and 5th level slot and his Arcane Ward when up 16 points (now at 44).
Fighter took 9 damage.

 

[Lord Twig]

Commentary on Encounter Two

So it didn't go well, but it could have been a lot worse.

The scouting failed in the sense that even with a spell and high skills they were spotted immediately. I would normally be a bit more generous there, but with the advantage of invisibility and blindsense it made sense that the Slaads would spot the rogue, who couldn't have predicted that combination. It succeeded in that the entire party was not being hit simultaneously with area spells.

The repeated Fireballs and Cloudkills definitely added a sense of urgency to close with the Slaads and stop them. As it worked it didn't matter though as they were then out of major offensive spells once the entire party managed to get into melee. The Banishment spell at the end just saved some bruising melee which would have gone on for at least two or three more rounds. Still worth the spell slot I think.

Honestly if the party had gone in together I don't think the outcome would have been that different. More people would have been hit with the fireballs, but the wizard would have been able to get off the banishment spell earlier and probably countered at least one of the fireballs.

Finally, all of the concerns of the animal companion have come true. Area spells just wreck them. It has confirmed in my mind that my house rules to make them a little more durable is entirely warranted (increased hit points to 5x ranger level and Evasion). And that's one of the things I wanted to find out by running these scenarios.

 

[Flamestrike]

The repeated Fireballs and Cloudkills definitely added a sense of urgency to close with the Slaads and stop them.

That was kind of the intent of the encounter. The party go from a long run, or overland journey to having as much time as they want to investigate the portal - followed immediately by a brute force ambush requiring them to think and act swiftly to engage the Slaadi.

A few concealed pits between the party and the Slaadi could have helped the encounter; a PC charging out of a cloudkill could find themselves in a spot of bother. I elected to avoid this though - the point of the encounter was to drain party resources by 10-15 percent and highlight the shock of the transition between [quiet investigation] and [brutal barrage of death]. Not initially knowing what theyre fighting, and the creatures abilities helps this as well [how many fireballs can these things cast... if we stay here we're dead!].

Finally, all of the concerns of the animal companion have come true. Area spells just wreck them. It has confirmed in my mind that my house rules to make them a little more durable is entirely warranted (increased hit points to 5x ranger level and Evasion). And that's one of the things I wanted to find out by running these scenarios.

Giving the companion evasion would be a fantastic house-rule to help the critter. As would allowing the critter to benefit from the rangers hunters mark, and allowing the ranger to make a weapon attack as a bonus action when he uses his action to command his critter to attack.