D&D 5E Design Debate: 13th-level PCs vs. 6- to 8-Encounter Adventuring Day

[Celtavian]

Finally played out the second encounter on a grid. It was done in 3 rounds.

So Nightflower the rogue and Bel the ranger with her wolf companion move into the room and realize they are not alone. Start combat.

Spells active:
Bel: Pass without Trace

Round 1:
Nightflower the rogue moves up. The Slaads don't see her at first, but thanks to their invisibility and blindsense Nightflower walks into their view before she realizes it.

Slaads throw Fireballs. Nightflower is off to one side, but there is no reason not to fill the room as much as possible and they still hit Bel and Cooper. They do nothing to Nightflower, singe Bel and almost destroy Cooper. (Animal Companions need serious help.) Bel makes two concentration saves to keep spell.

Bel moves forward takes and takes a couple shots with her bow while Cooper retreats into the far corner and dodges (bonus action from Bel).

Round 2:
Nightflower attacks but does little (6) damage since no Sneak Attack.

Slaad regenerates the 6 damage.
Slaads throw two more Fireballs. Nightflower rolls a 1 against one of them and Bel takes half from both again. (Both have +10 Dex saves.) Bel makes two concentration saves to keep spell.

Bel moves up to melee and attacks for 18 damage.

The rest of the party appear in the room and dash forward at the sound of combat. Ceric up the right side, Malloren up the left and Fred up the middle as planned.

Round 3:
Nightflower attacks with her bow again, but this time does 32 damage because the Slaad is in combat.

Slaad heals 10 damage.
Slaads both cast Cloudkill. They get everyone except the Ceric and Cooper in the area. Ceric Counterspells the first one using a 3rd level slot (with +10 to the counterspell roll). Despite excellent Con saves (except for Nightflower) 3 out of 4 characters fail against the second Cloudkill. Bel makes a concentration save to keep spell.

Fred hits the damaged Slaad twice more (missing once) for another 26 damage.

Ceric, recognizing outsiders when he sees them, casts Banishment from a 5th level slot at both Slaads. Even with advantage they failed the DC18 Cha save with their +3 mod.

Battle over.

Aftermath:
Rogue took 31 damage.
Ranger took 70 damage.
Animal Companion took 41 damage.
Cleric took 19 damage.
Wizard used a 3rd and 5th level slot and his Arcane Ward when up 16 points (now at 44).
Fighter took 9 damage.

Can they Plane Shift back in to ambush the party? I noticed they had plane shift. If a banishment worked, I was going to have them plane shift back into the demiplane and ambush the party. Flamestrike said they had recently plane shift-ed into the plane. Did they get a chance to long rest, so they could use their plane shift to get back if banished? You should check.

 

[Celtavian]

I already have my party's tactics for moving in. Rogue and Ranger with wolf companion going in first with stealth. Followed a round later by the fighter and casters. I haven't rolled it out yet, and I'm trying to decide how it will work.

The Rogue moves up the left side first (higher initiative) trying to spot the creatures she knows is there because of her high hearing perception. Once she get's within 60' they are in range of her darkvision, but she is also in range of their darkvision and blindsight. So do they see her automatically? Or do they have to make a Perception check?

At this point the rogue's stealth check is a minimum of 25 and her perception is at least 22. So even without rolling she should beat the Slaadi's own perception and stealth.

After the Slaadi's turns the Ranger goes and moves up with her wolf. She and her wolf also has ridiculous stealth and perception checks.

The following round would be Rogue, Slaads, then the rest of the party with the Ranger in the middle somewhere. So what would the Slaads do? Throw fireballs? At who and when? When would they throw Cloudkill?

BTW, Cloudkill, in addition to being poison damage, shuts down ranged attackers as the cloud creates heavily obscured area that you can't see through, even with truesight. So it would be an excellent choice against an opponent with counterspell. First, it's a lot more difficult to counterspell since it is a 5th level spell. Second, only one has to succeed to blind everyone in the area.

BTW, I'm happy to get input from anybody on what the Slaads would do. It doesn't have to be just Flamestrike.

It depends. I planned to open with a cloudkill, but I decided to stick with the intended fireball per Flamestrike's instruction as an attempt to avoid the questioning of tactics as occurred in the 1st encounter. When the bard ran forward, I considered she is dressed in leather armor. Would slaad know she could counterspell? I don't believe they have skills that make them aware of opponent casting ability. Bards don't normally get counterspell, so it wouldn't be something common to a leather wearer even if they did have the right skills. I saw no reason for them to know that the opponent can counterspell their fireball until they try to cast. Once the counterspells were used, the slaad intelligently pursued the casters. Given the distance from the targets, it would take a round for them to close unless they chose to use their concentration slot on fly preventing them from using cloudkill without killing their fly spell. I felt I used a reasonable choice given the situation and the knowledge of the slaadi.

I don't particularly understand the DM metagame assumption of switching to cloudkill rather than fireball when the fireball seemed smart since it would soften the party up for the cloudkill. You could run it either way and be using good tactics. Whether to cloudkill or fireball first is a coin flip. The fireball does immediate damage and is a Dex save. The cloudkill does less immediate damage, but has an obscuring effect. The cloudkill can be cleared with a single move and dispelled with damage causing concentration checks by a potent ranged attacker or dispelled with fair ease by the abjurer. If the cloudkill had went off, I would likely have cleared it with a move since Heavy Obscured areas do not in any way impede movement. I don't think the slaad were immune to poison and their primary attacks are melee, so they can't hide in the cloud. Either spell choice does not substantially slow the party.

 

[Flamestrike]

Can they Plane Shift back in to ambush the party? I noticed they had plane shift. If a banishment worked, I was going to have them plane shift back into the demiplane and ambush the party. Flamestrike[/i] said they had recently plane shift-ed into the plane. Did they get a chance to long rest, so they could use their plane shift to get back if banished? You should check.

Theyre out of plane shift (thats how tehy got here) so banishment works fine.

I don't particularly understand the DM metagame assumption of switching to cloudkill rather than fireball when the fireball seemed smart since it would soften the party up for the cloudkill.

Firstly, because the Bard can clearly see the Slaadi and is not surprised - this may very well cause one to decide to lob a cloudkill instead of a fireball as a result. Cloudkill obscures the Slaad from the PC that can see them, granting them greater freedom of action, and regains the initiative (in a figurative sense) by sowing confusion.

Also, at least some party members each have potentially two saves to make against the CK due to surprise, and the Slaads initiative relative to thiers (on rounds 1 and 2). This means they may very well be forced to make two saves.

Plus - the bard is in leather armor - from the looks of him he's probably a rogue of some type and thus good with Dex saves, and likely has evasion.

Secondly, the DM is well within his rights to metagame. He's the one behind the screen. Its his job to deplete party resources, police the adventuring day, and maintain the overall challenge and balance of the adventure. He's within his rights to throw a 'random encounter' at the party (that isnt random) if theyre having too easy a time of it, just as he's within his rights to fudge a lucky hit on a PC that could result in an unexpected and unfair TPK.

Its part of running the game. Im aware you probably prefer your DMs to be less participatory and more passive (basically just referencing the rules, and staying out of the story) but I violently disagree with that assertion. The DM doesnt just reference rules, he also (with the trust and participation) regulates the pace of the game, the challenges faced and so forth. There are whole chapters devoted to this in the DMG. Its not your preferred DMing style I can tell, but its a perfectly valid way to DM the game (again, see the DMG).

Putting my DM hat on here, I might decide (as DM) that as the party are fairly resource heavy (having breezed through the earlier encounters) to hit them with a harder effect to increase the overall challenge of the rest of the adventure. I pause and think of an 'in game' reasoning for this strategy (forcing two saves against cloudkill, and circumventing this foe who can clearly see the Slaadi by shutting down the visiblity of the party makes tactical sense) and come up with 'The Slaadi see you charge forward holding a bright gem and reacting to their presence - you see them stop chanting the spell they were about to cast... however they instead cast a spell you recognise instantly - Cloudkill! Make a Con save please as noxious green vapors blocking out vision choke up the hallway'

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I don't particularly understand the DM metagame assumption of switching to cloudkill rather than fireball when the fireball seemed smart since it would soften the party up for the cloudkill. You could run it either way and be using good tactics. Whether to cloudkill or fireball first is a coin flip. The fireball does immediate damage and is a Dex save. The cloudkill does less immediate damage, but has an obscuring effect. The cloudkill can be cleared with a single move and dispelled with damage causing concentration checks by a potent ranged attacker or dispelled with fair ease by the abjurer. If the cloudkill had went off, I would likely have cleared it with a move since Heavy Obscured areas do not in any way impede movement. I don't think the slaad were immune to poison and their primary attacks are melee, so they can't hide in the cloud. Either spell choice does not substantially slow the party.

Some DMs, including me, would rule that heavy obscurement does not interfere with blindsight. That means that Cloudkill, if the slaads were and the PCs were both inside it, would give the slaads advantage on attacks and disadvantage to their attackers, which is pure win. From this perspective Cloudkill is superior to Fireball, but only if the DMs let blindsight see through the cloudy vapors. I can imagine DMs ruling either way honestly.

 

[Celtavian]

Some DMs, including me, would rule that heavy obscurement does not interfere with blindsight. That means that Cloudkill, if the slaads were and the PCs were both inside it, would give the slaads advantage on attacks and disadvantage to their attackers, which is pure win. From this perspective Cloudkill is superior to Fireball, but only if the DMs let blindsight see through the cloudy vapors. I can imagine DMs ruling either way honestly.

They can't survive in it because they aren't immune to poison or even resistant to it. They have no ranged attacks besides fireball. They cannot attack in the cloud. The party would clear the cloud in a single move because heavy obscurement does not impede movement. The slaad don't have the power set to take full advantage of a cloudkill. If the slaad were immune to poison or had amazing ranged attacks, it would be in their best interest to fill the entire room with a cloudkill. But they don't. Their main damage is melee. So they have to close the distance. Cloudkill for all intents and purposes is exactly like fireball in the circumstances in the room. A damage spell that will likely do one round of damage.

Cloudkill has always been a somewhat hard to use spell. One of the best uses in 3E was coordinated or quickened. You cast cloudkill[/k] and quicken a wall of force to seal creatures in with a cloudkill. If the slaad had a wall of force, that could have been nasty as well.

Death slaad just don't have the combination to use cloudkill against a PC party as much more than a direct damage spell.

 

[Flamestrike]

They can't survive in it because they aren't immune to poison or even resistant to it. They have no ranged attacks besides fireball. They cannot attack in the cloud. The party would clear the cloud in a single move because heavy obscurement does not impede movement. The slaad don't have the power set to take full advantage of a cloudkill. If the slaad were immune to poison or had amazing ranged attacks, it would be in their best interest to fill the entire room with a cloudkill. But they don't. Their main damage is melee. So they have to close the distance. Cloudkill for all intents and purposes is exactly like fireball in the circumstances in the room. A damage spell that will likely do one round of damage.

Im telling you right now (and Im the DM and thus also the Slaad), the Slaad would have dropped a Cloudkill in your scenario to screw over the pesky 'Rogue' who has just run forward with a gem of seeing. Then the other one would have lobbed a fireball (the obscurement from CK probably negates the 'Rogues' evasion).

The end result is Jubilai (on his turn) would have been forced to either stay in the cloud and keep taking damage (and keep getting fireballed), or run forward towards the Slaad. Same deal with the rest of the party (who have all already copped a whole turn of SC damage on the surprise round)

Its not a question of debate. I designed the encounter, Im technically supposed to be DMing it, and this is what I would have had the Slaad do in this encounter.

 

[BoldItalic]

"I have a bad feeling," said Dom, gazing up at the roof and worrying her prayer beads. "Bedrock, do you feel it too?"

"Yes. Hard to describe." replied the paladin. "There's a smell of evil up ahead somewhere, but there's something else, something strange."

"Are you going to let us in on the secret?" asked Edward, getting out his copy of the High Fling. "Anything I can do to help?"

The cleric sighed. "The gods are quarreling. That's what it is. One of the gods is trying to take over the world from one of the other gods and we're liable to get caught up in it."

"Hold on," said Thomas, "So even of we save the world from Blackrazor, the world we've just saved could get torn apart anyway?"

"Not torn apart, exactly, it will still be there, but it might be very different. I'm struggling, here, to make sense of it, but this is too big for us. It's not our quarrel. We're just in the way."

"Any idea which gods?"

"One of them is Naivatlec, the god of arguments. I think his main enemy is Ekirtsemalf, the creator god."

"What should we do? Any place to hide?"

"Have any of you tried astral travel?"

"Not me."

"Nor me."

"There was a caravan suppliers in Trueport called Astral Travel. I bought a Rug of Flies from them."

"A rug of flies??"

"There was a slight language problem."

"How do we go about doing astral travel?"

"Stand in a circle and link arms. I have to read this scroll, that has mysteriously appeared in my hand even though it wasn't there a moment ago. I hope I get it right. The writing's a bit unfamiliar."

The spell worked and the inaudible sound of gods arguing receded. Except that ...

 

[Celtavian]

Im telling you right now (and Im the DM and thus also the Slaad), the Slaad would have dropped a Cloudkill in your scenario to screw over the pesky 'Rogue' who has just run forward with a gem of seeing. Then the other one would have lobbed a fireball (the obscurement from CK probably negates the 'Rogues' evasion).

The end result is Jubilai (on his turn) would have been forced to either stay in the cloud and keep taking damage (and keep getting fireballed), or run forward towards the Slaad. Same deal with the rest of the party (who have all already copped a whole turn of SC damage on the surprise round)

Its not a question of debate. I designed the encounter, Im technically supposed to be DMing it, and this is what I would have had the Slaad do in this encounter.

Yet another example of you not paying attention. Jubali is not a rogue. She is a bard. If one of them casts cloudkill, she counters it. Spell gone. Second goes and cast cloudkill, dispelled by Abjurer in round 2. Net effect: one round of direct damage. Jubali is a FEMALE character. She doesn't have evasion. You're confusing this party with Azurewraith. Not many people make rogues in my group because they are an inferior character class.

Now you're trying to grasp onto this cloudkill idea which still wouldn't have worked. I can simply exchange cloudkill for fireball in the encounter sequence and the only difference is a 5th level slot expended. That's it. It's very easy to see that it does not play out much differently with cloudkill.

The fact that a guy that claims to be a good DM can't see how a sequence of events will play out given the initiative order and capabilities of the players involved is surprising. Can you really not see the sequence of events? Did you really forget the bard can counterspell? Can you really not tell that she can do this no matter what spell you cast? So no, she wouldn't be pushed forward. One cloudkill would be countered. The other dispelled very quickly. It's all be carefully detailed for you in the sequence. Either way you cut it, one round of spell damage until Initiative count 15 on round 2.

The sequence of play is so obvious that I don't understand why you can't see it. I calculate this type of play all the time when I DM knowing exactly what the capabilities of my players are and I deal with far worse min-max combinations than you do.

 

[Flamestrike]

Yet another example of you not paying attention. Jubali is not a rogue. She is a bard. If one of them casts cloudkill, she counters it. Spell gone. Second goes and cast cloudkill, dispelled by Abjurer in round 2. Net effect: one round of direct damage.

I KNOW SHES NOT A ROGUE. Thats why I put the words 'Rogue' in commas.

The Slaad dont know this. They see a figure in leather armor run up and assume shes a Rogue. Good at dodging stuff - not so good at resisting poison.

Plus - the bard is in leather armor - from the looks of him he's probably a rogue of some type and thus good with Dex saves, and likely has evasion.

If you read my posts and stopped complaining all the time, questioning my rules knowledge or judgement as a DM and acting like a spoiled child, you would know this.

Im sorry I got her gender wrong. Im running a lot of parties through this at the same time. Gender wasnt something I put much thought into.

Like I've been saying, you're inattentive to the rules and the party make up. I don't care if you use cloudkill first, I still counter it. The only difference is Jubali spends a 5th level slot to do so. You still only get one round of cloudkill because the Abjurer countered it or would have dispelled it with a 3rd level slot with his roll.

How can a guy that claims to know the rules and a quality DM not even realize what he is going against or what they are capable of? How do you stop the bard from counterspell if you lose initiative? How do you stop the abjurerer from dispelling unless he fails his +10 roll? I could run this again with cloudkill and you do less damage.

Here you go again. I'm not buying into this again mate; read my post a few posts up. I'm not going to address your questions about your uber awesome tatcical murderhobo party and how they would handle cloudkill with ease or discuss you switching to fireball becuase youre no longer invited to the game. I wasnt changing the tactics 'To screw over Celtivan' and I am glad your party can deal with the change of tactics. The purpose of the encoutner was to challenge your party, and drain resources, not to screw you over personally.

If you were at my home, I would have politely shown you the door at the adventure beginning, and you would have heard a fair bit of cheering from my group on the way out. Mate, I cant speak for the other participants, but for my part I'm simply not intrested in what you have to say anymore - its invariably antagonistic, condescending, petty or both. I'll answer any questions about what the monsters do in response to stuff, or make any rulings necessary, but beyond that, Im not going to sit here and deal with your poor sportsmanship and general dissing of my DMing.

Feel free to theory craft all you want, post your awesome tactical victories against encounters you're running yourself through alone at home if thats what you want, but youve alienated everyone in this thread with your constant trash talking. Im done with it.

 

[Celtavian]

If you read my posts and stopped complaining all the time, questioning my rules knowledge or judgement as a DM and acting like a spoiled child, you would know this.

Im sorry I got her gender wrong. Im running a lot of parties through this at the same time. Gender wasnt something I put much thought into.

You got it wrong when you were running one party. I'm questioning your rules knowledge because you deserve it. You've been making incorrect rulings several times which I've pointed out. You seem to think saying, "I know the rules" obviates the need to actually know them.

Here you go again. I'm not buying into this again mate; read my post a few posts up. I'm not going to address your questions about your uber awesome tatcical murderhobo party and how they would handle cloudkill with ease or discuss you switching to fireball becuase youre no longer invited to the game. If you were at my home, I would have politely shown you the door at the adventure beginning, and you would have heard a fair bit of cheering from my group on the way out. Mate, I cant speak for the other participants, but for my part I'm simply not intrested in what you have to say anymore - its invariably antagonistic, condescending, petty or both. I'll answer any questions about what the monsters do in response to stuff, or make any rulings necessary, but beyond that, Im not going to sit here and deal with your poor sportsmanship and general dissing of my DMing.

Feel free to theory craft all you want, post your awesome tactical victories against encounters you're running yourself through alone at home if thats what you want, but youve alienated everyone in this thread with your constant trash talking. Im done with it.

I read that post. And as I said, it doesn't work like you think it works. None of these encounters have because you want to hand wave rules that many would not let you do.

I doubt your group would be cheering. They would be listening to someone that actually knows the rules very tightly and wouldn't be letting some DM run over me as a player with his incorrect rulings. The group would hear a logical argument explained clearly as to why you were incorrectly adjudicating. I would also show the clear problems with creature placement on your map in front of others. Also shown the obscurement rules to the entire group showing no disadvantage on ranged attacks. Also established tactics that would have had your entire group succeeding with much greater ease than I imagine is common in your games. Which would have made them rather pleased with their success. I imagine I would have been hearing something more along the lines of, "Good job, mate. Never quite thought about the game that way before."