D&D 5E Rolled character stats higher than point buy?

[Arial Black]

I agree with this, but in the context of D&D, I can think of no system that meets the competing criteria. I'd love to have one, and I've been racking my brain on and off over the problem for nearly 20 years now. If you've got a good solution, I'll happy gives you 20-30 XP for it.

Take any random system that you want. Whatever results that random system produces could be exactly replicated by some system where the DM randomly generates a stack of points for each player to spend, and then the player spends his allocation of points to create a character.

Try rolling stats in order (using whatever system you want: 3d6, 4d6k3, whatever). Now, this is random and gives the player no control. But after rolling six ability scores in order, pick two and swap them over!

You can't allocate all six scores, therefore you get surprises. But you can make sure that your best roll goes in the stat you want. It allows some customisation, but retains the element of surprise totally missing from point-buy.

When you see those six rolls in order, then your only choice is which two scores to swap. That might not seem much, but how many possibilities is that?

Looking at the array you rolled, and mulling over the possibilities, gives you ideas that you cannot get in a system where you had total control from the start. Point-buy allows you to metaphorically make your PC more stupid so that he is stronger. If you want a PC with high Str and aren't bothered with Int, why would you ever choose to have Str 14 and Int 10 when you could have Str 15 and Int 8, knowing that you have two racial +1 bonuses to assign? Thus, the evolutionary pressure for a population of 16s and 8s, with a dearth of (statistically more common) 10s and 11s.

Using this 'roll in order, swap one pair' method, your wizard might be strong or charismatic or whatever.

I imagine a university for student wizards. Each is likely to have high intelligence or they wouldn't have passed the exam to get in! But can we really say anything about what their other stats would be? Some people are charismatic or strong or what-have-you, and these people are randomly scattered among the population, including that university for wizards! This method much more accurately models that likely student population, because you can make sure that your Int is good enough by swapping a good roll into Int if it isn't good enough already, but four out of five of the others will be random.

But what about that same university using point-buy? What, every single one has Str 8 and Int 16? Really? Have you been to a university? Was every single student on the same course equally weak? Equally un-charismatic?

That's one of the reasons that I absolutely loath point-buy. It might be 'realistic' for heroes to have higher than average ability scores, but not that each member of each class to have identical scores.

 

[sim-h]

most people are overly optimistic and assume they will beat the average (there have been several studies on this).

This I believe is the crux of the issues around rolling

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Skyscraper]

Why is it that rolled character stats are normally always higher than a character created through point buy? I pretty much never see someone post a rolled character with stats worse than point buy. Does anyone know why?

By "post a rolled character", you mean on the discussion boards? If so, then I assume it's simply because no one discusses "ordinary" stuff. In the same way that you don't post about your morning ride to work where nothing happened. It's not that playing the character is boring, the game might be great fun. But, why post about a character who has 13 9 8 10 11 12? What reaction should I expect to such average, or conceivably low, stats?

If, by "post a rolled character", you mean in online games, then it's probably what was mentioned above, i.e. cheating. People fudge rolls. We've seen it in recent polls, although not specifically on this topic. I believe that most players very rarely, if ever, fudge rolls during games; with one exception: rolling character stats and hit points. Even DMs often tell players to re-roll low stats or HPs. So the stat array I mentioned above is likely to be re-rolled anyway, because almost no one plays with that kind of array anymore. The expectation is that the character will end up with high stats. (I'm not in favor of this myself, but it is what it is.)

 

[Sacrosanct]

There are several reasons why I prefer rolling over point buy

1. (probably the biggest reason) is that I don't like cookie cutter PCs. With array, every str based fighter has the same stats. Every rogue has the same stats. Etc. There is no mechanical variance to the PCs, which is important, because variance in stats leads to...
2. More flavorful role-playing. If two PCs of the same class/race have two completely different sets of stats, it helps use those stats as a way to impact how you roleplay them. For example, if one PC has a 15 CHA and the other a 6 CHA because of how they were rolled, it helps impact how you roleplay each one. I know roleplaying isn't chained to stats, but the stats do help impact how you choose to roleplay them.
3. The variance opens up opportunities for role-playing that otherwise might not be there. This sort of ties into #2. Let's say I play rogues pretty much the same way if all my stats are the same from PC to PC. With rolling, I might end up with a really high score in an expected stat, or a really low one. These unexpected results can be a lot of fun to role-play out in actual play. If the lowest stat I could ever have is an 8 by using array, I'd never have the opportunity to roleplay a PC with a stat of a 5 or 6.
4. Risk v reward. I am more than willing to accept a low stat for the risk of having a higher one. For me, one of the things that makes an RPG what it is, is having a persona that can take risks we would never take in real life. I'm not about to go put my life in danger on a daily basis, but it's fun to have a PC that does. There's no detriment to me personally by having a PC that rolled low stats. It reminds me of when you chose watches in the game. Everyone seems to rush for the 1st watch, or the last. No one wants the middle watch because breaking up your sleep like that sucks. Which is very odd to me, because it's my PC that has the middle watch, not me. So it's not like I'm losing sleep. The shift position has zero impact on me at all.

These are my preferences, and I am not saying that they are better objectively than people who don't like random chargen. I don't agree with how people can prefer to dip fries into chocolate shakes, but guess what? I'm pretty sure they don't care what I think. When you're talking about arguments of subjectivity, saying you don't agree with someone is an argument in futility. So what?

 

[JonnyP71]

A system I read about:

- take a pack of cards
- use 3 2s, 4 3s, 4 4s, 4 5s, 3 6s
- randomly draw 3 cards 6 times
- arrange as desired

It increased the potential range of stats beyond the boring enforced 8-15 range of point buy, 6s and 18s are possible, but unlikely.

It retains some of the variation of dice rolling.

Everyone's stats will have the same total, but likely a different composition.


I've not tried it yet but it sounded like an acceptable compromise.

 

[Jabborwacky]

Sometimes its not really cheating so much as the terrible idea of racial statistics perpetuated through every edition of D&D. It's pretty much impossible to not feel punished for trying to make a tiefling barbarian when none of its bonuses apply to the barbarian's key statistics. So to actually RP a character who defies the norm and isn't unduly punished for doing so, you simply must depend on rolled stats.

This wouldn't be a problem if they dispensed with the notion of racial stereotypes determining where a particular +1 bonus to an ability score goes and just let us put the +1 wherever we like. An elf with a +2 dexterity and a +1 to another ability score of the player's choice makes far more sense than permalocking the +1 in intelligence.

 

[The Cheshire Goat]

Ok



Doesn't really seem that risky. In fact, my guess is that is a very low risk method, with an average result of a bit over 14. I just tested it, and first time got 18, 15, 14, 14, 14, 13. So yeah, not seeing the risk.

That's a great character! You should keep it. We have had some really good ones, some pretty bad ones, and some in-between ones using this method over the last 25 years. Not as risky as many dice rolling character generation methods can be, to be sure - but it still generates some risk and luck, which we prefer in our groups. Point-buy feels to sterile and safe for me - but, to each their own. I certainly wouldn't turn down a good game that used point-buy.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Doesn't really seem that risky. In fact, my guess is that is a very low risk method, with an average result of a bit over 14. I just tested it, and first time got 18, 15, 14, 14, 14, 13. So yeah, not seeing the risk.

I had PL (precautionary landing---tech speak for mild crash landing) in the middle of a mine field in Bosnia. We didn't blow up. Seems to me that doing that isn't very risky....


Law of averages man. Using one example to make a statement like this seems pretty odd

 

[thecasualoblivion]

This would be my system for semi-random 5E character generation:

1. Choose your class(must be chosen before rolling stats)
2. Put 15 in your the main stat(s) of your class(yes this means Paladins, Monks, and Rangers get 2), main stat for Fighter is Strength
3. Put 14/15 in Constitution, Fighter, Cleric, Barbarian, and Paladin get 15, all others get 14
4. If not your main stat, put 14/15 into dexterity or roll(your choice), Fighter, Cleric, Barbarian, Paladin get 14, all others 15. Monk, Rogue or Ranger CAN choose to roll.
5. Roll other stats 4d6 drop lowest IN ORDER(including Dex if you chose to roll it), treat any roll less than 8 as 8, treat any roll of 16-18 as a 16
6. You may swap your main stat(s) for any other stat
7. If you rolled Dex, roll 4d6 drop lowest. You may swap that result for any one stat. (This roll can go above 16)
8. You may swap your Constitution for any other stat as long as that stat is lower than your Con

This will result in higher stats overall, but establishes a floor and a ceiling. It's impossible to roll a sub-par character, and keeps the well rolled characters from being too much better.