D&D 5E Rolled character stats higher than point buy?

[thecasualoblivion]

Was that a "yes" or a "no"? Are you seriously claiming that no one has ever given you a breakdown of the pros and cons and you need someone to do it for you? Or are you just trying to get people to (futilely) persuade you?

Because I simply don't believe that you've never encountered any reasons before, some in this very thread. I think you just don't like and/or don't agree with the reasons, which means that you are not even capable of reaching a state where you can say, "I understand [these concrete reasons] for liking rolled stats, but I have a different preference." I think you're just looking for an argument.

What do you want? You get one more chance to state your goals unambiguously before you go on Ignore. "Yes, I really do want to understand" is sufficient if that really is a true statement.

1. Curiousity--I'm curious why people feel differently. I'm also not entirely convinced "I just like it" is the whole story. If you prefer it that way, why? Sure people have given reasons before, but rarely anything like the specific statements I made about "balance between PCs at the table", "meeting player expectations", or "player customization and control of the end result". People also tend to be really vague about what rolling stats specifically means

2. Discussion--your specific personal preferences don't make for much of a discussion. Specific reasons do.

 

[Oofta]

1. Curiousity--I'm curious why people feel differently. I'm also not entirely convinced "I just like it" is the whole story. If you prefer it that way, why? Sure people have given reasons before, but rarely anything like the specific statements I made about "balance between PCs at the table", "meeting player expectations", or "player customization and control of the end result". People also tend to be really vague about what rolling stats specifically means

2. Discussion--your specific personal preferences don't make for much of a discussion. Specific reasons do.

I'll second that. I've never understood why people are so vehement about this issue.

I can explain why I prefer point buy. I think it's a better (if still flawed) system that better suits the goals of the game by increasing player agency, choice and fairness.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

I'll second that. I've never understood why people are so vehement about this issue.

I can explain why I prefer point buy. I think it's a better (if still flawed) system that better suits the goals of the game by increasing player agency, choice and fairness.

Good point about the vehemence. It's the vehemence in particular I really don't understand in the context of what people say about the issue.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

1. Curiousity--I'm curious why people feel differently. I'm also not entirely convinced "I just like it" is the whole story. If you prefer it that way, why? Sure people have given reasons before, but rarely anything like the specific statements I made about "balance between PCs at the table", "meeting player expectations", or "player customization and control of the end result". People also tend to be really vague about what rolling stats specifically means

2. Discussion--your specific personal preferences don't make for much of a discussion. Specific reasons do.

Okay. I'm pretty busy this morning but I can think of a couple of specific things to like about rolled stats off the top of my head. Bear in mind here that all aesthetic choices are ultimately subjective/axiomatic, so if you happen not to find one of these properties as cool as I do, that doesn't mean it's not a concrete reason. If you try to claim that personal preferences based on these concrete reasons are still somehow not concrete and that I haven't answered your question, you go on Ignore.

(1) Verisimilitude/plausibility. Even if everyone puts their lowest score in Int (I wouldn't), you'll still get a normally-distributed bell curve for Int. That feels more realistic/breaks my suspension of disbelief less than a uniform Int 8 score. The uniformity of PHB point buy makes me feel very much like a character in a videogame and not real person in a fantasy world.

Note: There are point buy systems (e.g. GURPS, Shadowrun) that don't feel quite so artificial because they let you spend points on things other than attributes, so "everybody has the same Int 8" doesn't happen. But those systems tend not to work well in level-based systems like D&D. Rolled stats give you that nice bell curve automatically, without having to reinvent D&D as a non-class-based, non-level-based game system.

(1b) Likewise, in a strict system like "3d6 in order", you'll find that there is no anti-correlation between stat pairs. With point buy, and possibly also with "4d6 drop lowest assign freely" (I haven't done the math so I'm not sure either way), there's an anticorrelation between e.g. Strength and Intelligence: smart people are likely to be weaker than dumb people, which is the opposite of real life. (High IQ correlates positively with fitness, whether because of genetic load or lifestyle habits or both.) Ditto for Intelligence and Wisdom. If you roll 3d6 in order, you'll have plenty of PCs (about 25%) who are both smart and wise.

(2) Starting character creation with a randomized input acts as a spur to creativity and ensures a wide variety of characters. When Bob the Fighter dies, you literally cannot just scratch his name out on the character sheet and make Bob The Lesser. Your next fighter will be different from Bob, and perhaps in a way which makes you want to take him in a completely different direction. Rolled stats result in more organic characters.

Off the top of my head, those are the two big reasons which come immediately to mind.

Judging by your forum comments on how much you prize fairness, you'd probably hate property #2 and organic characters. But it's a concrete property of randomized stat generation, and the next time someone says they don't know why anyone likes rolled stats, you ought to be able to both (1) describe what some people like, (2) state specifically where and why you have a different preference.

 

[Arial Black]

I agree. The only justifications that I've seen

Justification: People like random characters. They don't want to decide how to spend points.
My Response: Use one of the arrays. If you really want to randomize, roll for which array and what order the stats will be applied.

It's not that people like totally random stat generation, it's that they like a combination of randomness and control. Rolling, with various re-rolling (and other *ahem* 'cheating' methods) accomplishes this, but point-buy never can.

Justification: It's not realistic that everybody's low score is an 8.
My Response: D&D is not a life simulator. It's not realistic.

It's not a game of chess either. Most people like their RPG to be believable within the context of 'yeah, magic'. Realistically, all people are not created equal, and your desire to have every PC be equal is not universal. It's not any more objective than our desire for verisimilitude.

Justification: People like playing flawed characters.

That's not a claim that the rolling side makes, as point-buy allows dump stats to actually make your top stats even higher, so encourages dumping (and therefore flawed PCs) more than rolling.

 

[Mercule]

Off the top of my head, those are the two big reasons which come immediately to mind.

Judging by your forum comments on how much you prize fairness, you'd probably hate property #2 and organic characters. But it's a concrete property of randomized stat generation, and the next time someone says they don't know why anyone likes rolled stats, you ought to be able to both (1) describe what some people like, (2) state specifically where and why you have a different preference.

Answering only for myself, I see value in your points. I especially value #2, as carbon copy characters are a huge annoyance.

In practice, I find that:

1) Very, very few people are willing to play 3d6, in order, or anything else that amounts to "play the hand God dealt ya". They still want to be able to tweak, rearrange, and exchange stats.
2) They start out with a concept in mind and the dice are just one more obstacle to get to that concept.
3) Balance is a very real issue that gets less mitigation than the other issues.

So, I prefer point buy. However, if you're ever available to run a 3d6, in order, game, I'll happily join.

 

[Umbran]

Okay. I'm pretty busy this morning but I can think of a couple of specific things to like about rolled stats off the top of my head. Bear in mind here that all aesthetic choices are ultimately subjective/axiomatic, so if you happen not to find one of these properties as cool as I do, that doesn't mean it's not a concrete reason. If you try to claim that personal preferences based on these concrete reasons are still somehow not concrete and that I haven't answered your question, you go on Ignore.

Dude, I agree with several of your points (you restate some that I myself stated far upthread). However, ultimatums are not a constructive part of reasoned discourse. If you feel you must put people on Ignore, that's fine. We have the feature for a reason. However, we expect you to be discrete about it. It is there to promote politeness, not for you to use as a hammer.

Plus, do you really think your attention (and approbation) is so valuable that threatening to remove it will be a motivator for someone to do what you say? Isn't it more likely that the audience will, in fact, take the next step to call your bluff, and thereby effectively remove you from his or her section of the argument? Think about it.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Answering only for myself, I see value in your points. I especially value #2, as carbon copy characters are a huge annoyance.

In practice, I find that:

1) Very, very few people are willing to play 3d6, in order, or anything else that amounts to "play the hand God dealt ya". They still want to be able to tweak, rearrange, and exchange stats.
2) They start out with a concept in mind and the dice are just one more obstacle to get to that concept.
3) Balance is a very real issue that gets less mitigation than the other issues.

So, I prefer point buy. However, if you're ever available to run a 3d6, in order, game, I'll happily join.

Those are good points, and I find #2 especially cogent. This thread actually made me pay attention to that aspect when my player rolled up a new medieval doctor/cleric last night and notice that hey, the guy who sometimes likes point buy also created his concept before rolling. Interesting. Clearly he is also okay with rolling or he would have just chosen point buy, but still interesting.

BTW this campaign is using infection rules for flesh wounds, and medieval remedies like cutting off your face and exchanging it with someone else's to scare away the disease demons do at least occasionally work (1/6 of the time). 2/6 of the time you're just left without a face. No wonder the doctor wanted to learn clerical healing magic...

 

[Oofta]

I appreciate the responses. I happen to disagree, but I still appreciate it.

There are two main reasons I like point buy.

It allows me to build the character I envision (stats are one of the last things I do).

I don't want to have some people feel like there are winners and losers on the team before we even start. Everyone's character should feel like a hero and start out on even footing. The results of true randomness is inherently unfair.

One contradiction I do see however is that either other character's ability scores matter or they don't.

If other character's ability scores matter then people that complain about everybody having an 8 in their intelligence score have a legitimate concern. One I think is far outweighed by the difference capability in and out of combat with die rolls, but that's my opinion.

If other character's ability scores don't matter, then it doesn't matter if everybody shows up to the table with an 8 int*. Whether or not the range of abilities for other characters is a close approximation of reality is not important.


*I am curious - how often do you know the exact number? I never personally ask to see character sheets.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

[MENTION=6801845]Oofta[/MENTION], those are valid reasons. I'm not going to try to argue you into an alternate way of meeting your preferences, and I respect that you're not trying to do the same to me now. I appreciate your explanation of your preferences and I hope that you would find my following synopsis fair:

"People who like point buy often have one or both of the following factors in mind: the ability to create a character concept and then tailor a character to that concept with 100% certainty that it can be achieved, no dice/randomness involved; or putting all players on an equal footing." Does that sound about right?

Because of point #1, even rolling schemes that wind up giving all the players the same choices at the end of the day ("You can use anyone else's rolls") still don't satisfy your point-buy itch. Is that a fair restatement of what you just told me? I.e. am I hearing your accurately?

RE: the "contradiction" you identify, it's not a contradiction. "It doesn't matter if everybody else shows up to the table with an 8 Int" is true but kind of beside the point. What matters is that the system in use is generating a distribution of PCs skewed toward producing uniformly low Int scores. It's as true for NPCs as for players, or for people playing 1:1 in solo campaigns. The objection is to an unaesthetic system, not a particular group of unaesthetic results. That's why #1 and #1b are related--they're really just different ways of viewing the same system consequence.

*I am curious - how often do you know the exact number? I never personally ask to see character sheets.

I've mentioned at least once on this thread that I don't keep close track of PC stats, and if not for the fact that I have a good memory (e.g. for things players mutter to themselves while they are rolling dice) I wouldn't be able to provide even as much data about my players as I have on this thread. I'm also operating under the assumption that the stats that I don't know about, for a given PC, are probably not markedly better than the ones that affect play. For example, if I happen to know that a half-elf Warlock 2/Sorc 3 has a Cha of 18 and an Int of 10 or 12ish(?) and a Dex in the 14ish range, that lets me bracket and assert pretty confidently that he doesn't have a Str, Con or Wis of 17. (Note: Int is a coveted stat at my table, not a dump stat, apparently because of the way my initiative system works.)