D&D 5E I hate choosing between ASIs and Feats

[EzekielRaiden]

This statement in a vacuum sounds more like a killer DM problem than a character customization problem. What DM throws mummies against 1st-level characters? Also, what players don't heal their friend who got knocked down in the first round?

Well, the fight ended up a near-TPK; if the half-orc Ranger hadn't gotten a lucky death save crit (when already at 2 death save fails), everyone but the fleeing half-elf Druid would have died.

The DM wasn't trying to be killer per se, as he told us after. Apparently, his other 5e group, which also started at level 1, has been consistently capable of punching WELL above their weight, while our group was struggling to deal with just 'hard' combats. So he saw no problem with throwing a fight somewhere between Hard and Deadly at us while we were attempting to take a short rest because of a previous fight. Fortunately, he was nice and gave me and the group in general a lot of lenience about reviving my character (the NPC cleric that had removed the mummy curses used Revivify, which was allowed to work because we'd been trying to cleanse the temple of her deity). The game petered out a few sessions later, I think in part because the DM didn't know how to properly challenge us.

As for the mummy thing? I honestly don't know what he was thinking. Particularly since it was super bloody clear that he had had no plan in place for dealing with any successful mummy curses we might receive. Another guy and I had extrapolated estimates of the CR values for stuff he was throwing at us, and it was...not entirely consistent with our levels. Particularly when taking into account the fact that none of us had played 5e proper before, some hadn't played D&D in nearly a decade, and one had never played TTRPGs at all.

 

[epithet]

I'm currently running an adventure path (converted from 3.5) and using milestone xp because I'm lazy. I've added a few side adventures either because I wanted to or because the players strayed from the path, and for every extra bit I'll give one or two points. The players can spend one point on a proficiency (skill or tool) or three points on a feat.

Also, see the comments on Training on page 231 of the DMG, in the "Marks of Prestige" section. Basically, it has suggestions for using training (in the form of inspiration, a proficiency, or a feat) as "treasure." For my next campaign, I'm considering giving a feat at character creation, then limiting them to training rewards, removing them altogether from standard character advancement.

 

[jayoungr]

The first two paragraphs are spot on.

The third paragraph, though, is off base: my experience with AL is that most of the other players aren't optimizing, so there is no such pressure.

Hmm--well then, where do you think the pressure is coming from? Why does your optimizing side always win these internal struggles?

 

[S'mon]

How high do you think the average 5' wide corridor actually is? In real life, my 3' wide hallway is about 7'6"' tall. A D&D-style 5' wide corridor should be at least that tall, no? Incidentally, why do you think the rider is incapable of getting off the horse to get it through a tight space? (As a DM, I would rule a rider on a Large horse in a tight space to suffer the same penalties that the horse does.)

A quick Internet search tells me that standard dimensions for a horse trailer is about 10' long, 6' wide, and 7'6" tall. A 5' corridor is slightly smaller than that, enough so to more than justify the combat penalties, but not enough to make it remotely implausible for the horse to fit through.

I thought you wanted to sit on top of the horse & fight?

Edit: If anyone else has horse-riding PCs down dungeons, let me know. This is a new one on me.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Hmm--well then, where do you think the pressure is coming from? Why does your optimizing side always win these internal struggles?

Well, it doesn't always win. My sword & board vhuman Paladin currently has Mage Slayer as his feat. How's THAT for non-optimization?

He's 33xp from level 4 and I'm torn between Shield Master, +2 Strength, and +2 Charisma (both currently at 16)

 

[Bacon Bits]

How high do you think the average 5' wide corridor actually is? In real life, my 3' wide hallway is about 7'6"' tall. A D&D-style 5' wide corridor should be at least that tall, no? Incidentally, why do you think the rider is incapable of getting off the horse to get it through a tight space? (As a DM, I would rule a rider on a Large horse in a tight space to suffer the same penalties that the horse does.)

A quick Internet search tells me that standard dimensions for a horse trailer is about 10' long, 6' wide, and 7'6" tall. A 5' corridor is slightly smaller than that, enough so to more than justify the combat penalties, but not enough to make it remotely implausible for the horse to fit through.

If you want to use real world dimensions then the horse will fit, but it won't be able to turn around without a room, might have difficulty navigating corners or doorways (i.e., getting from a hallway into a door), won't necessarily be able to traverse a stairway intended for humanoids (down being more of a problem than up, and higher grades or smaller steps not being traversible), and a horse certainly can't traverse a ladder no matter what size creature it was built for. Most horses don't like walking backwards, either, and won't do it at full speed.

If you don't want to use real world dimensions, then I'd question whether you can move through a creature's space if that creature is squeezing. That makes the horse a mobile corridor barricade more than anything. You'll be cornered by the horse and be unable to retreat past the horse where ever you go. Nevermind if you come across a corridor where medium size creatures have to squeeze.

Anybody who tried to play a Paladin in 1e or 2e remember just how useless a steed is in a dungeon. I played a Paladin through level 15 and never called my mount because they were entirely too much hassle. There's a reason the game switched the class features involving steeds to pocket monsters.

 

[mellored]

To make things even worse for me I find is the fact that combat and non combat feats are drawn from the same limited pool which often finds the choice of combat viability vs colour/concept forced upon a player.

I think this is the best fix.

I would have combat (including ASI) at certain levels and non-combat at other levels.
Or primary and secondary.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I thought you wanted to sit on top of the horse & fight?

If you did it would be mostly pointless, at my table anyway, because as I said I would impose the horse's penalties on the rider. So you wind up functioning as a Large creature in a cramped space, at disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks and with enemies getting advantage on attacks against you. Your Mounted Combatant feat cancels out the disadvantage to attack smaller opponents (the ones who aren't taking disadvantage from being cramped), which leaves you being attacked at advantage but still being able to force people to target you instead of your mount, still with the mount's higher mobility, and still granting Evasion-like benefits to your mount.

Hmmm, now that I actually spell out the costs and benefits that actually doesn't sound like too terrible of an idea in some ways. You're basically trading AC for mobility (30' speed with free Dash/Disengage), which is often a good trade. Edit: also, BaconBits' comments about not being able to turn around are on point. It's kind of too bad 5E doesn't have facing rules by default, but "quadrupedal creatures in cramped spaces can't turn around" seems like a reasonable ruling for a DM to make. Be prepared for players to exploit this ruling against chuuls and dragons and whatnot if so, but that's a feature, not a bug.

But anyway, that's not what I originally meant to suggest. I just meant that you don't have to leave your mount behind just because you head into cramped terrain; not necessarily that you can use your mount while in cramped terrain. But most fights don't actually seem to take place in extremely cramped terrain, or Dodging would be more popular with players and Medium-sized monsters would be more popular with DMs and WotC's MM writers, and players wouldn't covet flying so much.

 

[ccs]

Anybody who tried to play a Paladin in 1e or 2e remember just how useless a steed is in a dungeon.

Thinking of my most recent 1e Paladin; Sure, my mount (a large white warhorse) was never useful IN the dungeon.
But it was faster, stronger, tougher (for awhile), and smarter than some of my fellow adventurers. It was also well equipped with magical horseshoes, heavy barding and had respectable to-hit/dam/HP #s.... It made an excellent guard outside the dungeon. More than once the DM had me run a combat: Warhorse vs bandits/goblins/etc Even a wyvern once. I protected the party inside the dungeon, my horse protected the other mounts outside the dungeon. It even went & fetched us help several times (it was under orders to take the other horses and return to the keep were I gone 3 days - like I said, it was SMARTER than some of the other characters).
And there were plenty of adventures that weren't all indoor affairs.

 

[ccs]

Yeah, I tried that. I died. At second level, after one round of combat (well, and three death saves). After already *nearly* dying to a mummy's curse at first level.

"Just do whatever you want, it'll be fine" hasn't exactly described my experience of 5e, and I actually did put some thought into optimization, too.

Valar morghulis.

Seriously, whatever the edition (except maybe in 4e?), any character can drop dead at the early levels. Poorly made ones, perfect ones, favorite ones, optimized ones, especially ones in games facing mummies at 1st lv....
The difference is in how much you enjoyed playing them before their story came to a surprise ending. In fact this happened to us this past Wed. We had a party of great 2lv characters & 1 encounters worth of terrible rolls on our part. Result: TPK.
But that won't prevent me from making my next character how I want. What I think will best represent them. What I think will be the most fun.