D&D 5E (2014) Do NPCs in your game have PHB classes?

How common is it for NPCs in your world to be built using the classes in the Player’s Handbook?

  • All NPCs (or all NPCs with combat or spellcasting capabilities) have class levels.

    Votes: 5 2.9%
  • Class levels are common for NPCs, but not universal.

    Votes: 54 30.9%
  • NPCs with class levels are rare.

    Votes: 87 49.7%
  • Only player characters have class levels.

    Votes: 29 16.6%

Well, sort of. You've compared Highlanders in my game to Asgardians at other times; in any case, his higher amount of life force might prevent him from splatting at all in the first place, like a man made out of hard rubber tires instead of jelly and water.
OK, in an earlier post you described them getting stabbed through the kidney and no visible wound after withdrawing the spear - I took that as actually through the kidney (more Highlander, you take damage, it 'kills' you, you get better) rather than not even breaking the skin (more Asgardian).

Though the whole EXP is sucking life force thing still sounds like the Quickening. ;)
 

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OK, in an earlier post you described them getting stabbed through the kidney and no visible wound after withdrawing the spear - I took that as actually through the kidney (more Highlander, you take damage, it 'kills' you, you get better) rather than not even breaking the skin (more Asgardian).

Though the whole EXP is sucking life force thing still sounds like the Quickening. ;)

What I'm saying is that there's not a dichotomy there. Per the 5E PHB, "typically" you show no visible signs of injury of injury when near full HP, and I've certainly narrated stabs and cuts before... but I'm not committed as a matter of principle of soft flesh, since the actual physics of what's going on is "higher binding energy" which implies that certain things will deplete energy without ever deeply penetrating the flesh. In short, I basically just haven't ever done the math to know exactly what would happen in the 200' fall case, and I haven't done that math because it doesn't really matter: he takes 20d6 damage and exactly how he gets there is a matter of indifference to me. If you were the player, and you liked the idea going "splat" and then pulling yourself back together, I'd shrug and say, "Sure, sounds good to me." If you like the idea of bouncing off the ground better, maybe it would be that instead. I'm fine with a given player (not PC) getting to decide exactly how their own PC's personal HP work as long as they fit the basic physical model; neither method would be more energy/HP-efficient in my world, just as all methods of climbing 1000' in elevation are basically equally efficient.
 


There is no difference. Original RAW (1e) backs up what I am saying. Only 4e really changed things.

Nope. Both 4e and 5e went off the reservation with their "modern" game design. 1e described how a high level fighter would be covered with scratches and bruises after being damaged which I think you even quoted at one stage.
 

Nope. Both 4e and 5e went off the reservation with their "modern" game design. 1e described how a high level fighter would be covered with scratches and bruises after being damaged which I think you even quoted at one stage.

1e also described hit points as mostly non-physical, so while you would have scratches and bruises, you could not see most of the damage since it was luck, skill, divine favor and so on.
 

1e also described hit points as mostly non-physical, so while you would have scratches and bruises, you could not see most of the damage since it was luck, skill, divine favor and so on.

Not to mention not having any mechanical representation for luck, divine favour and so on. Clerics did not get extra hit points for being especially pious, Thieves did not get any for being exceptionally skillful and Wizards did not get any for being lucky enough to survive their first adventure.
 

1e also described hit points as mostly non-physical, so while you would have scratches and bruises, you could not see most of the damage since it was luck, skill, divine favor and so on.

The only problem I have with 1e hp being 'luck, etc'.. is how slow it was to recover this 'luck, skill, etc' hps, without magic healing that is.
 

I should think being dead is somehow significant. If that last point of damage - that 16th point if you have 8, or that 8th point if you're only talking unconsciousness - is not more significant, why does it result in unconsciousness or instant death?
Look at your own argument, from earlier - healing from zero to 1 doesn't require any more or stronger magic than healing from 99 to 100, so obviously they cannot represent vastly different changes of state. That's not my argument, but it's something you should probably take into consideration, based on your previous statements.

For the vast majority of people in the real world, you can punch them once and they'll be okay, but if you keep punching them then they'll eventually fall unconscious, and that happens at a different point for different people. There's no real difference between the first punch and the last punch, or any of the punches in between. And it's true for almost everyone, almost entirely without regard for how strong you are. That is Hit Points, in a nutshell.

You can take north of 10x your hp in a-planet-just-hit-you damage and not break bones? And you're worried about what sort of internal consistency, again?
You're the one saying that total HP should matters in describing how a wound of any given damage manifests itself. I'm the one saying that an attack that deals 80 damage (or whatever) manifests similarly on both characters, so yeah, I'm going to say that my version is consistent. Literally.

If you're trying to establish that you can just look at someone and know how much damage they've taken, in hps, non-meta-gamely, how is people with different hps taking the same amount of damage, and having radically different effects from it, not something you care about?
So, you know how you punch a nerd like three times and they go down, but you have to punch Mike Tyson like a thousand times to get the same effect? It's the same thing. You're applying the same amount of force from each punch, but one victim requires a much greater total amount of force to be imparted in order to reach the limit of consciousness.

And do you know what the difference is, between those two people? Some of it is physical health and toughness, sure, but there's also skill in taking a hit, vast disparities in actual experience, and other factors that are difficult to pin down - i.e. much of the same stuff that Gygax was talking about, back in the day.

And, I really have to wonder where this new-found acceptance of profoundly limiting what non-fatal hp damage can represent came from, and whether it'll vanish conveniently later...?
There's rarely reason for me to talk about my personal preference in the matter, because it really is just a preference, although it's somewhat more-enforced of a preference since I've been running a 5E game with the default healing rules.

If you want to talk about arrows sticking in someone's back, then it's still consistent, if somewhat less realistic. If it takes one arrow in the back to kill most people, but Boromir can take half a dozen before dropping, then it's the same basic principle in effect. It's just a matter of how fantastical you want your fantasy warriors to be.
 
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For every example of a level 10 fighter being hit with a sword there's the adventurer being hit with a poisoned arrow, stabbed by an unseen rogue, or a troll being struck by a flaming sword.

It's like arguing about what a Rorschach test is a picture of.
I think the comparison to a Rorschach test is apt at least to this extent: a Rorschach test is not a picture of anything. Nor is a character's hp total.

Events happen in the fiction. These events - which can be quite varied, as you point out - all result in reducing the hp tally. But that reduction is not itself a representation of those events. There is no requirement that a given degree of hp loss be narrated as the same event this time as it was that time, just because the mechanics of that loss are the same.

And that is one marker of hp not being a simulationist mechanic.

(For clarity: if you impose a particular ingame narrative over them, as [MENTION=6787650]Hemlock[/MENTION] does, then you get something closer to process simulation. But that is not what Gygax suggests in the passages under discussion over the past few pages of this thread.)
 

I would only give class levels to a very unique NPC or monster, probable a major villain or something special.

I prefer to view the PC classes as being unique. Sure there are soldiers and warriors in the world, but none of them have quite the same set of techniques as the PC's fighter. Yes there are other wizards, but none of them with quite the same set of spells and tricks as the PC's wizard... and so on for all the classes. In fact I am completely fine in some settings for the PC to be the only person of their type eg the only Warlock, only Sorceror, only magical Cleric (this is why I dislike FR a little as it takes metagame terms like classes and tries to rationalise them in the setting).

I definitely do not think that the heroes described in the PHB class progression are typical for their "profession" (and I don't like to refer to the classes much in game either, except where very appropriate eg a monk is probably an actual monk sure and in most cases would be introduced to NPCs as such, but no one would refer to themselves or anyone as as a 'rogue').

So I will almost always use the stat bars from the MM, with tweaks and changes as needed, and only add class levels for very special occasions.
 

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