D&D 5E Little rules changes that still trip you up

[Mouseferatu]

I am surprised at the Natural 20/Natural 1 confusion. A lot of people must have been house-ruling that because a natural 20 or 1 have not been an auto success or fail on anything other than attack rolls since before 3rd edition.

In 3E, they were auto-success/fail on saving throws.

 

[thalmin]

In 3E, they were auto-success/fail on saving throws.

Actually, the auto success/fail was not in 3E (PHB 3.0 page 119). It was added in 3.5 (PHB 3.5 page 136).

 

[Mouseferatu]

Actually, the auto success/fail was not in 3E (PHB 3.0 page 119). It was added in 3.5 (PHB 3.5 page 136).

Same thing. Who remembers the difference?

 

[KahlessNestor]

Which, just for clarity's sake, has since been confirmed as deliberate by the designers.

Good to know.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Same thing. Who remembers the difference?

I do, but that's because my gaming group at the time outvoted me to get us playing 3rd edition when I wanted to keep playing 2nd edition for a laundry list of reasons based entirely on how the game mechanics function, which were all trumped by their "Yeah, but we bought these new books and want to use them." Then when 3.5 came around and addressed a few of the reasons I didn't want to play 3rd, the group outvoted me on changing to 3.5, and it became the only time in the history of me being a gamer that I overruled a group vote because I'm the DM... and instead of arguing with them about it, I only said "Yeah, but I bought these new books and want to use them."

As for minor rule changes that keep tripping up my group:

They keep forgetting they can move before, between, and after attacks instead of just before or after, and have needed to be reminded a time or two that there is no such thing as negative hit points.

 

[ad_hoc]

The idea that you could not be surprised by an attack that hasn't happened yet from a threat you aren't aware of is super wonky, but appears to be RAW and RAI.

But it happens all the time in stories which involve assassins and ninjas.

Played straight usually something other than the assassin causes the would be victim to flinch in an unexpected way at the last second. It is possible to suddenly become aware of an attack as it is about to hit you enough to move a couple inches. That is all that is needed. I don't find that unrealistic at all.

Played for laughs it is usually the victim's incompetence that saves them. Perhaps they slip and fall to avoid the assassin's bullet or they bend over to tie their shoe.

In martial arts films it is often a measure of the ninja's great stealth vs. the monk's preternatural awareness. In 5e if a Monk wins initiative they can use their reaction to catch an Assassin's arrow if they win initiative. Even if they didn't see the Assassin before the arrow was fired. This is the game working as intended to represent that trope.

I am curious, do you disallow the Alert feat (or not use feats) in your game as well? If you can't think of someone who might flinch at the last second to avoid an Assassin, I would imagine it to be even more unbelievable that someone couldn't ever be surprised.

 

[I'm A Banana]

But it happens all the time in stories which involve assassins and ninjas.

Played straight usually something other than the assassin causes the would be victim to flinch in an unexpected way at the last second. It is possible to suddenly become aware of an attack as it is about to hit you enough to move a couple inches. That is all that is needed. I don't find that unrealistic at all.

The wonkiness there is that the assassin hasn't actually done anything for the victim to react to when the victim stops being "surprised." There's no attack yet. The assassin isn't seen or heard (they're still hidden). The target just goes from being surprised to not being surprised and nothing has happened or changed in the world or the fiction to trigger that change.

In martial arts films it is often a measure of the ninja's great stealth vs. the monk's preternatural awareness. In 5e if a Monk wins initiative they can use their reaction to catch an Assassin's arrow if they win initiative. Even if they didn't see the Assassin before the arrow was fired. This is the game working as intended to represent that trope.

This trope already has a mechanic: it's the monks Unarmored Defense feature + the ninja's attack roll. That's keyed off of Wisdom and keeps that fiction intact (vs. being based on Dexterity, which isn't about awareness). When the assassin misses the monk with their attack, that is the monk's preternatural awareness letting them dodge the attack.

I am curious, do you disallow the Alert feat (or not use feats) in your game as well? If you can't think of someone who might flinch at the last second to avoid an Assassin, I would imagine it to be even more unbelievable that someone couldn't ever be surprised.

There's no contradiction - someone with the Alert feat never suffers the effects of the surprised condition. That doesn't mean they're aware of attacks that haven't actually happened yet (and might now never happen), though.

 

[ad_hoc]

The wonkiness there is that the assassin hasn't actually done anything for the victim to react to when the victim stops being "surprised." There's no attack yet. The assassin isn't seen or heard (they're still hidden). The target just goes from being surprised to not being surprised and nothing has happened or changed in the world or the fiction to trigger that change.

That's just it, nothing has happened so nothing is wonky. Surprised to not surprised is not something happening in the fiction. The character doesn't actually act. They don't get an action or a bonus action.

The only difference is that the Assassin won't auto-crit. That's it. They still get advantage and sneak attack damage.

They do get a reaction which brings us to:

This trope already has a mechanic: it's the monks Unarmored Defense feature + the ninja's attack roll. That's keyed off of Wisdom and keeps that fiction intact (vs. being based on Dexterity, which isn't about awareness). When the assassin misses the monk with their attack, that is the monk's preternatural awareness letting them dodge the attack.

The Monk can literally catch an arrow they were unaware of if they win initiative. Even if the Assassin hits. This happens in stories about kung fu Monks.

There's no contradiction - someone with the Alert feat never suffers the effects of the surprised condition. That doesn't mean they're aware of attacks that haven't actually happened yet (and might now never happen), though.

Wait, are you implying that winning initiative makes you aware of attacks that haven't happened yet? That's a new one to me.

The rules say that you are allowed to have a reaction to an attack as it is happening if you have won initiative. That is all that winning initiative while surprised does.

 

[I'm A Banana]

That's just it, nothing has happened so nothing is wonky. Surprised to not surprised is not something happening in the fiction. The character doesn't actually act. They don't get an action or a bonus action.

The only difference is that the Assassin won't auto-crit. That's it. They still get advantage and sneak attack damage.

That's what's wonky. First, "surprised" to "not surprised" sounds like it should mean something in fiction. Second, a "natural language" reading of the situation is nonsensical, since there is no reason for a character that hasn't been attacked by an attack they aren't aware of to be surprised in the first place. Third, an Assassin waiting for an auto-crit would be a circumstance for which the assassin would just have the target re-roll initiative until the assassin won (assuming that the player knew when the target was "surprised" and it was "not surprised").

Wonky!

The Monk can literally catch an arrow they were unaware of if they win initiative. Even if the Assassin hits. This happens in stories about kung fu Monks.

My point was that initiative doesn't represent the monk's preternatural awareness. In 5e, that's baked into the monk's AC.

Wait, are you implying that winning initiative makes you aware of attacks that haven't happened yet? That's a new one to me.

The rules say that you are allowed to have a reaction to an attack as it is happening if you have won initiative. That is all that winning initiative while surprised does.

But if a creature is surprised and no attack comes...what were they surprised by? How did they stop being surprised?

Order of Operations:
1 - Assassin: "I shoot my bow at the unaware guard!"
2 - DM: "Okay, the guard is surprised. Roll initiative."
3 - Init is rolled. Guard wins.
4 - DM: "Okay, the guard is not surprised anymore because of reasons. Your turn."
5 - Assassin: "Okay, I don't shoot the guard." / "...I ready an action to shoot the guard when she IS surprised."
6 - DM: "Uhh...okay, no combat happens, and the guard continues on its patrol, still unaware of you. What do you do?"
7 - Assassin: "I shoot my bow at the unaware guard!"
8 - ...etc?

 

[ad_hoc]

5 - Assassin: "Okay, I don't shoot the guard." / "...I ready an action to shoot the guard when she IS surprised."

I found the problem.

The Assassin has already declared the attack.

The attack is happening.

You can't go back in time and make the attack not happen. Further, the DM shouldn't be saying which NPCs won initiative. The DM should be narrating what the NPCs do.

The NPC when they lose initiative does nothing. The NPC win they win initiative does nothing. So they are indistinguishable. There is nothing for the DM to describe because the NPC isn't doing anything.

The only difference is that if the NPC wins initiative they might have a possible reaction to an attack. If that happens then the DM can say, 'okay Assassin, you have made your attack but your foe throws up the Shield spell (or whatever) at the last second.'