D&D 4E 4E vs 5E: Monsters and bounded accuracy

[AaronOfBarbaria]

I wish that a giant could have AC 30 and +23 to hit, which would be nearly insurmountable to a level 3 character and almost trivial to a level 20 character.

But why do you wish that?

I mean, the 5th edition giants of a sort that would have AC 30 and +23 to hit seem nearly insurmountable to a level 3 character and almost trivial to a level 20 character as-is, so I wonder what you see as being gained by not only having part of the resolution process (the giant's HP total and damage its attacks do) create that impression, but the other parts (the giant's AC and it's attack roll modifier) as well.

 

[cmad1977]

If your monsters are one trick ponies... it isn't the fault of the monster design or stat block.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Shiroiken]

Personally, I love the fact that creatures are (mostly) what you expect them to be. However, I'm not understanding why this is an issue in 5E. There are examples of creatures that have "advanced" versions, and you can easily create a custom monster for a leader if there isn't something available already. You can also just make a few minor tweaks to existing ones if it's easier.

For example, I recently ran the 1E adventure Steading of the Hill Giant Chief. It has children, which are weaker, and the Chief and his Lieutenant, which are stronger. Instead of following the suggestion ("fights as X"), I made a few tweaks to the actual Hill Giants. The children were only Large size and had 50% of average HP, wore no armor, and had -2 Attack & -4 Damage. The Lieutenant had 150% of average HP, and had +1 AC, +1 Attack and +2 Damage. The Chief had max HP, and had +2 AC, +2 Attack, and +4 Damage. It worked out quite well, but was a bit of a pain to remember the bonus/penalty mid-combat.

 

[Leatherhead]

I do miss being able to stat up a monster in 45 seconds.

I don't miss having to make new monsters for every encounter depending on the character level.

It is worth mentioning you can add any attack you want to any creature you want so long as it doesn't up their Burst 3-round DPR or effective HP, and it will be the same CR. You just add all ranged elemental bolts or all the pushme-pullyou riders you want, then throw on something that inflicts/grants (dis)advantage and you should be all set. And if you want positioning to matter more, use the Flanking Optional rule.

However, I find that having less creatures with special reactions and attacks that do three different things on resolution speeds up play greatly. It also has the nifty side effect of letting the creatures interact with the environment more, instead of using their self-contained 2-4 rote attacks as a rule.

 

[Xeviat]

If your monsters are one trick ponies... it isn't the fault of the monster design or stat block.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nice veiled insult? That's not really helpful or on topic.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[pukunui]

I find many 5e monsters boring too, but not because of bounded accuracy. More because they don't have any cool tricks. A number of them had interesting things they could do during the playtest, but for whatever reason those things got removed. Stuff like giant frogs having a long reach "sticky tongue" attack, and dragons being able to knock people away with their tails. I've been adding those things back in, and also doing stuff like giving giants the ability to knock back/prone smaller creatures with their melee attacks and the like. Makes things a bit more dynamic.

 

[cmad1977]

Nice veiled insult? That's not really helpful or on topic.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ok. How's this?
If your monsters are one trick ponies... it isn't the fault of the monster design or stat block.
Try using more varied actions than the ones listed in the statblock.
Zombies don't simply make slam attacks. Some grapple, some shove, some slam. Now you have a horde of undead bringing down the heroes and nibbling away a la the walking dead.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[The Crimson Binome]

The biggest problem with scaling only HP and damage is that it doesn't work. A level 3 party can defeat a fire giant, and it doesn't require an unlikely confluence of circumstances. It might be pretty close. The giant might actually win, but it's far from insurmountable.

You could build a game that scaled only on HP and damage, instead of attack and defense, but it would require a lot more inflation of both. As a starting point, consider adding your level to both the damage of every attack and the HP you gain with each level.

Of course, that means a high-level fighter can take something like a hundred meaningful hits from a weapon, as compared to an attack/AC model where most attacks miss or bounce off ineffectually.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

It seems like the NPC classes give you a lot of what you want for humanoids, so the obvious solution would be for some NPC classes for other types of critters (and maybe some higher level NPC classes for humanoids). Giants in particular seems well suited for this. Fiends (and celestials) would be a little harder, maybe based on level and/or flying ability (something like bloodwar veteran recommended for fiends with no flight and CR <6 or Asmodeus Guard recommended for fiends [devils] CR 10 and up). If WotC makes more fey, and they tend to be bipedal in appearance, then they might be good candidates for NPC classes.

 

[Xeviat]

Ok. How's this?
If your monsters are one trick ponies... it isn't the fault of the monster design or stat block.
Try using more varied actions than the ones listed in the statblock.
Zombies don't simply make slam attacks. Some grapple, some shove, some slam. Now you have a horde of undead bringing down the heroes and nibbling away a la the walking dead.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Much better! It's easy to forget these are there. I did spice up a hydra fight by having two heads initiate grapples before pulling two PCs under water with it.

But there is something to be said about having more actions built into the stat blocks. Other things can get forgotten in the heat of an encounter.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk