Short/Long Rest Spellcaster Variant

[Xeviat]

Hi everyone.

I've been working on this in my head for some time. I'm a big fan of 4th Edition, but I realize a lot of that comes from being a giant fan of the monster system and a fan of the all classes being on the same "short rest" timer. As one whose playing experience is mostly from behind the DM screen, 4th Edition was one where I felt most comfortable with challenging my players. I could throw a hard fight at them and know it was going to be hard. I could throw a routine fight that would still pose a challenge. It wasn't entirely a game of attrition.

But, I do enjoy 5E's back to basics approach to the class design itself. I like that the classes have unique class abilities, that they aren't just their power progression. But, balancing short rest oriented classes with long rest oriented classes has been troublesome in my games. Balancing the characters across an "adventuring day" has been tough as well. In the current game I'm running, the 6th level wizard's ability to drop two or three fireballs can ruin an encounter, making it entirely not a challenge and yet hurting the party for the next combat. My players have been pretty good about not novaing, but it's happened once or twice; when you're running a game on roll20, having the time you put into setting up an encounter "wasted" by it being a 1 or 2 round rout is disappointing.

So, I got the idea to have every spellcaster use the Warlock spell structure. Then, every class would be generating most of their power on a short rest, and nerfing what long rest classes can do in a single fight. Then I adjusted things a little more, bringing in the "arcanum" style spells earlier. Yes, this does mean I'm giving lower level spellcasters less 2nd and 3rd level slots than they had before, but that might make them more special.

Spell points are shown here for 2 short rest day to see if I'm giving enough slots. They look reasonable to me.

Short Rest/Long Rest Spellcasting
[TABLE="width: 500"]
[TR]
[TD]Level[/TD]
[TD]Short Slots[/TD]
[TD]Slot Level[/TD]
[TD]Long Slots[/TD]
[TD]Point Value[/TD]
[TD]SP[/TD]
[TD]Diff[/TD]
[TD]%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]50%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]7%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]17[/TD]
[TD]-2[/TD]
[TD]-12%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]27[/TD]
[TD]-4[/TD]
[TD]-15%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]32[/TD]
[TD]-9[/TD]
[TD]-28%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]3, 4[/TD]
[TD]38[/TD]
[TD]38[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]3, 4[/TD]
[TD]38[/TD]
[TD]44[/TD]
[TD]-6[/TD]
[TD]-14%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]4, 5[/TD]
[TD]58[/TD]
[TD]57[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]2%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]4, 5[/TD]
[TD]58[/TD]
[TD]64[/TD]
[TD]-6[/TD]
[TD]-9%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]4, 5, 6[/TD]
[TD]67[/TD]
[TD]73[/TD]
[TD]-6[/TD]
[TD]-8%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]4, 5, 6[/TD]
[TD]67[/TD]
[TD]73[/TD]
[TD]-6[/TD]
[TD]-8%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]5, 6, 7[/TD]
[TD]83[/TD]
[TD]83[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]5, 6, 7[/TD]
[TD]83[/TD]
[TD]83[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]5, 6, 7, 8[/TD]
[TD]91[/TD]
[TD]94[/TD]
[TD]-3[/TD]
[TD]-3%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]5, 6, 7, 8[/TD]
[TD]91[/TD]
[TD]94[/TD]
[TD]-3[/TD]
[TD]-3%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]17[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]6, 7, 8, 9[/TD]
[TD]106[/TD]
[TD]107[/TD]
[TD]-1[/TD]
[TD]-1%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]6, 7, 8, 9[/TD]
[TD]106[/TD]
[TD]114[/TD]
[TD]-8[/TD]
[TD]-7%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]6, 7, 8, 9[/TD]
[TD]127[/TD]
[TD]123[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]3%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]6, 7, 8, 9[/TD]
[TD]127[/TD]
[TD]133[/TD]
[TD]-6[/TD]
[TD]-5%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

This totals to an average spell point conversion of -2.6 and an average percentage difference of -2.5%. That's pretty darn close, if you ask me.

Now, doing this will simultaneously increase and reduce spell utility. Spellcasters won't have a handful of low level spell slots that they can use on utility spells without spending their higher level spells, but they also can use low level spells with impunity if they have time to rest. Adjusting the time requirement for short rests could help with this. "Invocations" may be needed to be added to the structure, and the spell list would need to have "utility" spells of 1st and 2nd level identified (these are the spell levels that the warlock's at-will spells come from). Then again, the warlock doesn't have too many options for these.

The biggest change would be the ease of short rest healing. But this already exists in the game in some form. Healer clerics, Fighters, the Healer Feat, and multiclass Bard/Warlocks and Paladin/Warlocks all have short rest healing abilities. But since the total "oomph" of long rest spellcasters between short rests has been reduced, this could be handled by simply turning up the difficulty dial a bit and maybe accepting that characters will fully heal between short rests if they have any extra time to rest.

Or maybe healing could cost hit dice?

I'm not 100% sold on this yet. I love the concept. I may do it with the spell point system as well, which would then allow for low level utility spells more frequently. It may require a few more changes in the other classes: Barbarian rage would probably need to be switched to a short rest recovery (1 per short from 1st through 11th, 2 per short from 12th through 19th, and unlimited at 20?). Are there any other abilities that my stand out?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Interesting ideas. I'm too tired to give anything useful, but I like where your head's at.

 

[Xeviat]

Interesting ideas. I'm too tired to give anything useful, but I like where your head's at.

I look forward to your thoughts later.


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[TheCosmicKid]

Maybe I'm just up too late as well, but I'm afraid you've lost me. Where do the spell points come into the picture?

 

[Xeviat]

Maybe I'm just up too late as well, but I'm afraid you've lost me. Where do the spell points come into the picture?

I just used the spellpoint conversion to see if I was undercutting or overshooting their slots. As it compares with the current spell point system, but has some favorable situations in slower days while nerfing one combat days, I'm thinking it's good.

I'll update the OP to make that clear.


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[Tony Vargas]

Hi everyone.

Hi Xeviat!

I've been working on this in my head for some time. I'm a big fan of 4th Edition,

My condolences. We really should have a support group or something...

But, I do enjoy 5E's back to basics approach to the class design itself.

I wouldn't call it 'basics' - back to tradition, perhaps. 'Baroque' wouldn't even be entirely unfair.

But, balancing short rest oriented classes with long rest oriented classes has been troublesome in my games. Balancing the characters across an "adventuring day" has been tough as well.

It's a fairly straightforward formula. You have 2-3 short rests per long rest, and an encounter or two (really, a sufficient number of rounds, maybe, for gratuitous symmetry, say 6-8) between each short rest. That gives at-will abilities enough chance to 'shine' in the mopping-up department, and balances the availability of short- vs long- rest recharges.

In the current game I'm running, the 6th level wizard's ability to drop two or three fireballs can ruin an encounter, making it entirely not a challenge and yet hurting the party for the next combat.

The idea is the player of the wizard will 'learn' from the latter, of course.

I got the idea to have every spellcaster use the Warlock spell structure.

Sounds workable. Most of the casters use a very similar daily-oriented slot-progression, converting them to the warlock's short-rest slot progression should be fairly reasonable.

Now, doing this will simultaneously increase and reduce spell utility. Spellcasters won't have a handful of low level spell slots that they can use on utility spells without spending their higher level spells, but they also can use low level spells with impunity if they have time to rest. Adjusting the time requirement for short rests could help with this.

Up or down?

The biggest change would be the ease of short rest healing. But this already exists in the game in some form. Healer clerics, Fighters, the Healer Feat, and multiclass Bard/Warlocks and Paladin/Warlocks all have short rest healing abilities.

OK, shorter short rests, then? Doesn't seem like a huge problem.

Or maybe healing could cost hit dice?

Sure. There might need to be more HD available, though. Maybe full HD refresh per day? Or some on a short rest? Or just more to start with.

I'm not 100% sold on this yet. I love the concept. I may do it with the spell point system as well, which would then allow for low level utility spells more frequently.

I was thinking that might be good.

It may require a few more changes in the other classes: Barbarian rage would probably need to be switched to a short rest recovery (1 per short from 1st through 11th, 2 per short from 12th through 19th, and unlimited at 20?). Are there any other abilities that my stand out?

What about Monks & BMs and the like. Do you figure they get enough just being along for the short-rest ride? Or is it going to become pretty clear that the same Maneuvers you picked from at 3rd level don't cut it next to 5th level spells re-charging on the same schedule?

 

[Xeviat]

What about Monks & BMs and the like. Do you figure they get enough just being along for the short-rest ride? Or is it going to become pretty clear that the same Maneuvers you picked from at 3rd level don't cut it next to 5th level spells re-charging on the same schedule?

The Battlemaster's maneuvers compare to an Eldritch Knight's spells, not a full caster's. So that would be comparing a high level BM's 6-7 maneuvers per short to an EK's 3 level 2 spells per short, not level five.

Similarly, based on Elemental Monk and Sun Monk spell scaling, and comparing Ki points to spell points, I think the monk's "casting" is more comparable to a half-caster's, so 20-24 ki points per short compares to 3 level 3 spells per short, plus a 4 and a 5.

Those might compare favorably.


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[Tony Vargas]

The Battlemaster's maneuvers compare to an Eldritch Knight's spells, not a full caster's. So that would be comparing a high level BM's 6-7 maneuvers per short to an EK's 3 level 2 spells per short, not level five.

You may be on to something. Did you give the EK any long slots?

 

[Xeviat]

You may be on to something. Did you give the EK any long slots?

They'll progress just as they do, based on what level of wizard their progression makes them. It looks like it's (level/3) rounded up. They get their new spell levels at 3, 7, 13, 19, if I remember correctly, so their "wizard levels" are at 3, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, and 19. They'll get a few long slots, their 2nd level spell starts as long, but becomes short, then they get a long 3rd and 4th.


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[Tony Vargas]

They'll progress just as they do, based on what level of wizard their progression makes them. It looks like it's (level/3) rounded up. They get their new spell levels at 3, 7, 13, 19, if I remember correctly, so their "wizard levels" are at 3, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, and 19. They'll get a few long slots, their 2nd level spell starts as long, but becomes short, then they get a long 3rd and 4th.

Hmmm.... Maneuvers chosen at 3rd vs 1st & 2nd level spells does seem reasonable, in contrast to the current set up. I feel like the BM would need to 'go long' on something, too, though.

Then again, all spells are presumably written up with D&D tradition and use as dailies in mind.