D&D 5E After 2 years the 5E PHB remains one of the best selling books on Amazon

[doctorbadwolf]

Your sensible usage is oddly useful in confirming your conclusion -- your intentionally and narrowly excluding any sources that don't conform to your conclusion's needs. Which, as I note, is silly because you get the same conclusion, if a bit less severe, if you don't exclude Pathfinder.

And, again, why are the novels, which are less more unlike the game, okay points while Pathfinder isn't?

You're exclusion of Pathfinder doesn't materially aid your argument -- the trend remains if it's in or out -- but it does alienate people that do think that Pathfinder is more D&D than 4e. Which, again, seems more like wanting to be right than actual discussion.

It has nothing to do with supporting a conclusion. Far as I can tell, including PF is exactly the thing you're accusing others of. The novels are DnD novels! Just like PF novels would be more relevant to a discussion of PF than any edition of DnD would be.

How inclusive PF is has no more to do with how inclusive DnD is, than how inclusive a Green Ronin supliment would. Ie, nada.

Again, we are discussing whether DnD's inclusiveness trend helps it sell more books, and bring in more players.
Unless you are making the point that the increased inclusiveness of other games helps DnD, as well, by bringing new people into the hobby, the inclusiveness of another game, with its own brand, is not relevant.

I don't five a single polished crap about internet win points. I just want you to stop insisting on treating an irrelevant derail as a legitimate point about how inclusive DnD is.

 

[Sadras]

I can see it. The slogan for 6e
D&D, the roleplaying game where Gender Preferences Matter



It's going to sell out faster than a condom vending machine at a college dormitory

 

[flametitan]

As to "Iconics," they do actually have characters who appear throughout the Core books, and I presume they named them and developed little stories, but they did not repeat the 3.x marketing mistake of thinking much of anybody would care.

I don't believe this is what you mean, but I'm 90% certain the depiction they use for the fighter in the PHB appears in both Princes of the Apocalypse and in the SCAG, for example.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I don't believe this is what you mean, but I'm 90% certain the depiction they use for the fighter in the PHB appears in both Princes of the Apocalypse and in the SCAG, for example.

Also, people did care in 3e.5, and even more so when pathfinder did it.*
Iconics are great.


*see, that is a context in which other games are relevant! Because it's a point about whAt DnD could do, I'm not trying to say that DnD has done iconics well because people like pathfinder's iconics.

 

[Parmandur]

I don't believe this is what you mean, but I'm 90% certain the depiction they use for the fighter in the PHB appears in both Princes of the Apocalypse and in the SCAG, for example.

That's exactly what I mean; if you go to WotC website, they have him stated for ten levels in the Pregens section...as "Human Fighter," no name given. No name forthcoming, in all likelihood; just a generic stand in, as with "Drow Rogue" or "Half-Orc Paladin."

 

[Parmandur]

Also, people did care in 3e.5, and even more so when pathfinder did it.*
Iconics are great.


*see, that is a context in which other games are relevant! Because it's a point about whAt DnD could do, I'm not trying to say that DnD has done iconics well because people like pathfinder's iconics.

WotC gave up the practice of trying to market "Iconics" as of 4E, just using them as art assets. I know of nobody who cared, and the lack of them as features moving forwards suggests that the marketplace is similarly disinterested.

 

[flametitan]

That's exactly what I mean; if you go to WotC website, they have him stated for ten levels in the Pregens section...as "Human Fighter," no name given. No name forthcoming, in all likelihood; just a generic stand in, as with "Drow Rogue" or "Half-Orc Paladin."

Yeah, I didn't expect a name. I just wasn't sure if the adventure supplements counted towards what you were going for. I'll have to check out the pregens again, I didn't realize that they might have been based on the artwork. I tend to make my own pregens; it's easier to tie them into an adventure that way.

 

[Mistwell]

You keep using arbitrary incorrectly. Arbitrary means based on personal choice or personal whim, that would be choosing to claim one game (named something else, produced by another company, holding none of the IP rights and so on) is, because of your personal choice actually a different game.

It's a fact that Pathfinder is not D&D... Pathfinder is not D&D thus whether it is/has or is not/hasn't been inclusive... does not reflect on whether D&D is or is not inclusive, only on whether Pathfinder is. That should sum it up.

It is arbitrary. A lot of people consider Pathfinder to be D&D. When people have done polling on it, that's the types of responses they get. When you go to a game store as a newbie and ask to see D&D, often the employees will point you to Pathfinder and WOTC's D&D, because they are viewed as essentially the same game.

Now many others disagree and say only WOTC's products are D&D. But that doesn't make the people with opposing views wrong. It's just that some people consider it D&D and others do not. There is no one "correct" answer here. However, if the question is, "Considering those products which many people think of as D&D..." then such a subset should include Pathfinder along with all the TSR and WOTC versions of D&D. It probably includes a lot of the OSR as well.

Bottom line though, Pathfinder as D&D or not isn't a matter of "fact" but is instead a topic of "opinion".

 

[Mistwell]

It has nothing to do with supporting a conclusion. Far as I can tell, including PF is exactly the thing you're accusing others of. The novels are DnD novels! Just like PF novels would be more relevant to a discussion of PF than any edition of DnD would be.

So are Kre-O D&D figures D&D too? Are miniatures made by third parties but with a WOTC license D&D too? Was the Kingdoms of Kalamar material made by Kenzer & Co. but with the Dungeons and Dragons label on it under super-special and unusual license also D&D? Where do you draw the line in this?

If, out of 1000 people, 501 consider Pathfinder to be D&D but only 20 consider Kre-O figures to be D&D, do you still draw the line at "branded as D&D" and include Kre-O but exclude Pathfinder despite the obvious problem with usage in common parlance? I mean, the only purpose of this categorization is how people view it, right? There is no purpose to viewing this type of topic in a vacuum without the context, as the entire issue is about context and perceptions.

 

[Imaro]

It is arbitrary. A lot of people consider Pathfinder to be D&D. When people have done polling on it, that's the types of responses they get. When you go to a game store as a newbie and ask to see D&D, often the employees will point you to Pathfinder and WOTC's D&D, because they are viewed as essentially the same game.

Now many others disagree and say only WOTC's products are D&D. But that doesn't make the people with opposing views wrong. It's just that some people consider it D&D and others do not. There is no one "correct" answer here. However, if the question is, "Considering those products which many people think of as D&D..." then such a subset should include Pathfinder along with all the TSR and WOTC versions of D&D. It probably includes a lot of the OSR as well.

Bottom line though, Pathfinder as D&D or not isn't a matter of "fact" but is instead a topic of "opinion".

Wrong. Pathfinder is not D&D... you can consider it that all you want but the fact is (and it is a fact as opposed to an opinion)... it's not. How about you ask an employee of Paizo publicly if their company publishes D&D... and see what the answer is.


EDIT: Just to clarify here... you're saying if I as a parent who wanted to get my kids into D&D were to come into a hobby store and ask for the D&D corebooks... or starter set... the store employees would be justified in claiming (lying?) that the Pathfinder Corebook and Bestiary are D&D corebooks and selling them to me... or handing me the Pathfinder starter set and claiming it was a Dungeons and Dragons starter set?