D&D 5E Game design allow sub optimal class build. Confirmed by M Mearls

[Krachek]

George Sutherland H ‏@Acr0ssTh3P0nd
@mikemearls Does the game math assume characters use races with class-optimal Ability Score increases?

(((Mike Mearls)))– ‏@mikemearls
@Acr0ssTh3P0nd no

We can play a class with a race we like, use feat that look cool, use spell for fun and role play. Surprising indeed!



http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/10/21/does-the-game-math-assume-characters-use-races-with-class-optimal-ability-score-increases/

 

[delericho]

And thank goodness (or Mearls) for that!

The problem with assuming the optimal options is that the 'assumed' quickly becomes the 'required', and then the range of usable options very quickly contracts - there might be 500 ways to build a Fighter, but if only one or two are optimal then you'll only ever see those one or two, and the other 498 are wasted paper.

Better to assume that people will use good, but not optimal, builds as standard, and build the game so that it can handle characters who are a bit better than that standard.

 

[Yunru]

I thought that was obvious. With bounded accuracy, stats start to mean less.

 

[GreenTengu]

I believe it was a general guiding principle when designing most of the races. At least in terms of the Halfling, Elf and Dwarf, they have been created in such a way that, generally, if you choose a class where the attribute bonuses improve those you will use for the class, a lot of the racial abilities have greatly reduced impact or become entirely redundant as they are picked up as part of that class.

In general, each race should give you a good and meaningful bonus regardless of your class.


The only race that flat out fails miserably on this principle (not looking outside the PHB at least) is the Half-Orc whose primary attribute bonus is absolutely useless to all classes except for strength-based melee fighters and has a pretty potent ability that... can only trigger if you are a melee fighter... and the other ability allows you to escape being lowered to 0 HP which is... most useful to someone who is going to be on the front lines (in melee). It is true that imaginably any character could make use of an extra round after being reduced to 0 HP, but the first person to drop is almost always the "tank".

It is only that much worse that Strength is the second crappiest stat in the whole game, unless you are using encumbrance rules than basically Dexterity can just substitute in for Strength nearly every single instance you would ever be asked to make a Strength check plus gives you all the powerful abilities, improves your AC as well as your accuracy and damage in both melee and ranged (while Strength gives you only melee). Only attribute more worthless to an average random character is Intelligence.

In short, everything about the Half-Orc race design makes it incredibly powerful when matched with a handful of classes and pretty much the worse choice for half the classes in the game (including many things you might think an Orc should be able to be.)

So basically the caveat needs to be made... you can have a well-balanced character if you play a class that doesn't mesh with your race's attribute bonuses.... unless you are a half-orc.

But, hey-- given that playing a Half-Orc was just a suboptimal choice for every class in 1st through 3rd edition and all other races were superb at one or two classes and terrible at everything else... one badly designed race (presuming you were in fact designing on the principle that any race/class combo should be viable) should not wipe away that all the other races do a pretty good job of providing you a nice benefit regardless of your class.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Strength and Dexterity are quite balanced. It is just not that obvious. If you take heavy armor into account, the only thing left for dex based chars is better initiative and better ranged options. In melee strength is better as it allows for more combat maneuvers. During exploration strength has important associated checks. Climbing, opening doors. Int may need some help though. My fix: Int helps learning things during downtime.

 

[OB1]

[MENTION=6777454]TheHobgoblin[/MENTION] - While I agree that the half-orc is built with a melee fighter strongly in mind, it still won't hurt you to play a half-orc wizard or thief or whatever. The game math only assumes that you take +2 in your primary attack stat. After that everything you do to optimize makes the game easier from the baseline combat assumptions. I have a 9th level gnome sorcerer/warlock who still only has a 14 in Cha and don't have any issues with combat effectiveness or feel I'm underpowered in the party. And the extra int comes in very handy with the social and exploration pillars.

Would a half-orc wizard be suboptimal? I don't know... In early levels have a bit more HP and the ability to stay up for another round after getting dropped to 0 sounds pretty good, and with 16 Con, 14 Int and 14 Dex and 13 Str as your starting stats, you could take weapon master at 4th to start wielding a great axe with some power, getting the advantage of the critical bump.

 

[GreenTengu]

Strength and Dexterity are quite balanced. It is just not that obvious. If you take heavy armor into account, the only thing left for dex based chars is better initiative and better ranged options. In melee strength is better as it allows for more combat maneuvers. During exploration strength has important associated checks. Climbing, opening doors. Int may need some help though. My fix: Int helps learning things during downtime.

Well, that arguement aside, what I was really getting at is that while Elf and Dwarf and most others were designed in such a way that you can play just about any class and receive a meaningful benefit-- i.e. with Elfs, if you are a fighter than getting those martial proficiencies doesn't mean anything and if you are a spell-caster than one more cantrip doesn't generally help you as much it does a non-spellcaster and if you are a Dwarf, then if you choose to be a warrior, cleric or paladin then the armor profiency doesn't help you much and the extra hit points are of marginal benefit (getting 1 extra hit point means a lot more to someone who is getting only 4 per a level otherwise than one who is getting 8) and your martial proficiencies are wasted, but if you are anything else-- then you aren't as mobile as anyone else and the fact that heavy armor doesn't reduce it further does nothing for you.

Half-Orc is the stand-out example where literally everything the race gives you kind of drives you to be a Barbarian, Fighter or Paladin.. possibly Cleric... and if you choose any other class then you'd be better off choosing any other race. In fact, since previous editions even Monk has been taken off your options list as it has been transformed into an entirely Dex-based class... and doing Ranger is very iffy as it too is designed as a completely Dex based class. (Seriously, that whole "Dexterity is balanced with Strength" argument is one to have because I see Dexterity being handed absolutely all the benefits). Granted, at least your bonus critical ability and your ability to get back into battle benefit somewhat if you are one of those two you aren't nearly as bad off as if you chose literally any other class in the book... to which you just flat-out suck if you are a Half-Orc.

Unless you are going to come back with some what in which a big strength boost and coupled with increased criticals in melee combat only somehow makes you an amazing Sorcerer, Warlock or Wizard.

So although many races have been well designed so that it really doesn't matter what your class is so much because every class can benefit to a good degree by the racial abilities if not the attribute... half-orc is the exception.

And I have a feeling we'll see a lot more of those exceptions once Volo's guide to monsters as I have a feeling the Firbolg is going to end up being capable of only being effective as a Barbarian and Goblins will probably be so entirely geared towards being Rogues that there will be dangerously subpar as anything else.

@

TheHobgoblin - While I agree that the half-orc is built with a melee fighter strongly in mind, it still won't hurt you to play a half-orc wizard or thief or whatever. The game math only assumes that you take +2 in your primary attack stat. After that everything you do to optimize makes the game easier from the baseline combat assumptions. I have a 9th level gnome sorcerer/warlock who still only has a 14 in Cha and don't have any issues with combat effectiveness or feel I'm underpowered in the party. And the extra int comes in very handy with the social and exploration pillars.

Would a half-orc wizard be suboptimal? I don't know... In early levels have a bit more HP and the ability to stay up for another round after getting dropped to 0 sounds pretty good, and with 16 Con, 14 Int and 14 Dex and 13 Str as your starting stats, you could take weapon master at 4th to start wielding a great axe with some power, getting the advantage of the critical bump.

Okay, well-- that is a different approach. My approach is

"the difference in power level between the person who chose the 'ideal' race/class combo and the person who rolled them up randomly won't be very much and may be nearly incidental even without pulling weird build tricks"-- to me that is balance.

If instead you are saying that balance is that the assumed opponents from the monster manual are going to lose to PCs but not overwhelmingly so even against optimal PCs... that's a different definition of balance...

But, if you have the later and not the former, that means that any player who "knows what they are doing" is going to cake-walk through all supposedly "balanced" encounters.

 

[OB1]

If instead you are saying that balance is that the assumed opponents from the monster manual are going to lose to PCs but not overwhelmingly so even against optimal PCs... that's a different definition of balance...

But, if you have the later and not the former, that means that any player who "knows what they are doing" is going to cake-walk through all supposedly "balanced" encounters.

Yes, this is the intent of 5e I believe. The assumption is that once players become more advanced and "know what they are doing" so does the DM, who can then adjust encounter difficulty appropriately. But the base game is designed to be both accessible to new players and also to encourage taking choices that interest you rather than choices you need in order to succeed in the combat pillar.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Maybe I'm confused. The title of the thread, with the quoted tweet, seems to imply to me that people weren't sure if they could make a non-optimized character and that's somehow a revelation with Mearls' response? "Does game design allow suboptimal PCs?"

Of course it does. Not only does the game not force you to make an optimized PC, but most gamers don't even play that way. Optimizers have always been the minority of gamers. Most everyone else play what they feel is the coolest PC to play for what they want. Did we really need confirmation on this? That probably explains his sarcastic response, because I'd probably respond the same way.

 

[Redthistle]

@TheHobgoblin - While I agree that the half-orc is built with a melee fighter strongly in mind, it still won't hurt you to play a half-orc wizard or thief or whatever. The game math only assumes that you take +2 in your primary attack stat. After that everything you do to optimize makes the game easier from the baseline combat assumptions. I have a 9th level gnome sorcerer/warlock who still only has a 14 in Cha and don't have any issues with combat effectiveness or feel I'm underpowered in the party. And the extra int comes in very handy with the social and exploration pillars.

Would a half-orc wizard be suboptimal? I don't know... In early levels have a bit more HP and the ability to stay up for another round after getting dropped to 0 sounds pretty good, and with 16 Con, 14 Int and 14 Dex and 13 Str as your starting stats, you could take weapon master at 4th to start wielding a great axe with some power, getting the advantage of the critical bump.

I built a half-orc bard who favors his human ancestry in appearance, used the race's +2 Str simply to raise the PC's Str to average, maxed Cha to the extent the rules allow, with Int & Dex sharing 2nd place. This is on the Standard Array point-buy.

I stole/adapted the rogue's Mastermind archetype from SCAG into the College of Tactical Studies (almost made that Tactical Studies Rules in homage to some guy named Gary) and I've been pleased with the resulting ambitious competitor to the current crime boss so far.