D&D 5E Totally underwhelmed by 5e bladesinger, am I missing something?
- Thread starter Mort
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Flamestrike
Legend
1st level sleep insta kills anything with 5d8 HP or less, no save.
Youre also using a ton of 2nd level slots (and wasting rounds) putting up mirror image and blink etc.
Example:
On turn one, you blade dance and cast mirror image. Your turn ends, and you've done nothing but increase your own AC.
BBEG's turn and he [does something bad to the party].
Compare:
On turn one, the diviner casts hold person, and uses his portent ability to replace the BBEGs save with a 4.
Encounter over.
Thats what youre giving up.
Flamestrike
Legend
Theyre a wizard with a high AC. You give up things that make you better at being a wizard (and doing a wizards job) in exchange for a sky high AC. Things like portent, or the evokers ability to fireball and exclude his allies.
The trick is not to sit back and waste time and slots sending your AC through the roof. Be God and win the encounter (or turn the tide of the encounter) turn 1. Thats your job as a wizard.
This is why I think its a trap option. Not only for what they give up compared to diviners and evokers and conjurers, but also for the fact that players get sucked into playing them by sitting back and self buffing to get sky high ACs (wasting time and slots for no net gain for the party) or they think theyre fighters and race into melee, only to haemmorage spell slots on shield, while dealing piddling damage in return.
Activate bladesong and then fireball. Play them like any other wizard (a mobile artillery platform/ God); just one thats a bit harder to hit, and has a melee fallback if push comes to shove.
Again, what you're not understanding is, I'm not wasting rounds every fight. I said I can do that. But I'll play this silly game of yours. Sure an evoker can cast fireball on his party for good aoe damage, but what happens if it's only 1 opponent? What happens if he gets attacked from behind after he cast his fireball? As a DM I us that tactic often when using smarter creatures who knows the casters are in vulnerable positions.
It's pretty retarded of you to think it's a waste of time to ensure survivability in certain fights like boss fights. A dead wizard can't cast any spells, so all spell slots would be wasted if he can't survive. Most combat I don't bother wasting spell slots because bladesong by itself is enough to get me through the fight.
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It's pretty retarded of you to think it's a waste of time to ensure survivability in certain fights like boss fights. A dead wizard can't cast any spells, so all spell slots would be wasted if he can't survive. Most combat I don't bother wasting spell slots because bladesong by itself is enough to get me through the fight.
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Wow, think you could try that without words like "retard"?
Flamestrike
Legend
He uses spell slots you have earmarked for shield, mirror image, blink etc to cast sleep, hold person, scorching ray, charm person or web.
Oh no, for sure it's nice to have a high AC. But youre giving up being a better wizard in exchange for a higher AC.
Portent alone is auto fail a save or suck a few times a day. It turns an entire encoutner on its head.
Kill the boss on turn one. You dont get much more surviable that that.
The rounds you waste casting defensive spells are rouns youre not contributing to the fight, and are free rounds for the the Boss to dump his offensive crap on the rest of the party. Shut that
down on turn one.How many times do you see DMNPC wizards sit there and self buff for a few rounds? Thats right, you dont. They lead with fireball or something scary like dominate person or wall of force - something that seizes the initiative and has the PCs reacting instead of getting into position and beating stuff down for a round or two.
Oh I agree, but the sum is greater than the parts. Nothing wrong with bladesong and then cast [spell that wins the encounter] on turn one.
My point was that you give up things like portent or evocation goodness to get that bladesong/ high AC (so youre already not as good as your main job of winning, but become better at not losing.. assuming being the sole survivor of a TPK = not losing). My other point was I see players get sucked into the high AC thing, waste precious early rounds (and spell slots) making themselves unhittable and play something that isnt really a wizard anymore.
If you want a melee monster, dip Bladesinger for 2 levels on an EK 7 chassis. Dip 2 more into Paladin so you're doing some decent damage (but watch for MAD), and finish with 9 levels of Sorcerer. Grab TWF with Fighter, and Defence style with Paladin. Caster level 14.
Either that or (my preference) Paladin 6/ Bladesinger 3/ Fighter 2/ Sorcerer 9. CL 15. Smite, +cha to saves, extra attack, action surge, AC through the roof, 2 x fighting styles, bladesong, metamagic.
You’re not the slightest bit more versatile, since you traded versatility in other forms for bladesong. Portent adds to wizard versatility. Summoning huge mobs of powerful undead is versatility. Using AoE without endangering allies is versatility. The argument is that buffing your AC is a less useful choice as a wizard subclass than the alternatives, to which you have offered no rebuttal.
Then he probably uses a direct damage spell instead. Not exactly rocket science, the point is that his AoE options are more consistently available than yours (should you use them) and that this increases his value to the party through wide killing potential. Furthermore, potent cantrip and empowered evocation are good for single or multi target spells, so he’s simply trading your defense in favor of killing power, and offense is commonly held to be the better option since ‘dead’ is the ultimate crowd control.
He probably pops a shield or similar reactive spell, same as you. His AC won’t be as phenomenal, but by high level this doesn’t really matter since enemies frequently have potent spellcasting/breath weapons of their own and AC is less valuable. Lastly, your AC isn’t going to matter in a couple levels anyway, since enemies are going to be reliably rocking +11-17 to hit, so even your vaunted 27 AC won’t save you. This is one of the reasons that barbarians are sometimes cited as more of a tank than fighters; at high level effective HP becomes far more important than AC.
It increases survivability only when AC is the subject of the attack, so it doesn’t really ‘ensure’ anything. That’s not necessarily bad, but it’s more niche in application than the evoker’s damage bonus which works on every opponent he faces. It’s certainly not ‘OP’ in any sense of the term, and can be overcome in a variety of ways.
As an aside, 1d8+5 damage is incredibly low for 8th level, even with 2 attacks.
Horwath
Legend
You have extra attack.
at lvl6 longbow is better than firebolt. It also has no verbal components(stealth avenue opened).
You can dual wield as blade singer, at lvl6 that is potential 3d6+2×dex damage per round. you can even take TWF feat and use rapiers.
but remember, you're a wizards in the 1st place. Bladesinging is optional and extra maneuvar, not mandatory every signle encounter.
at lvl6 longbow is better than firebolt. It also has no verbal components(stealth avenue opened).
You can dual wield as blade singer, at lvl6 that is potential 3d6+2×dex damage per round. you can even take TWF feat and use rapiers.
but remember, you're a wizards in the 1st place. Bladesinging is optional and extra maneuvar, not mandatory every signle encounter.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
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