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D&D 5E Next up is Fighter, what do you want from UA?

CapnZapp

Legend
If I had to make a prediction, I'd say we'll get probably 3 or so of the previous UA's 'Monster Hunter' / 'Scout' / 'Cavalier' style subclasses, which were basically Battlemasters with pre-selected maneuvers and a special feature.

What's the likelihood that some of the fighter subclasses in the next article will have Superiority Die, and use them in limited and unsatisfying ways when compared to the great subclass that is the Battlemaster?
Yeah. The problem is that Battlemaster already does all of those things.

Giving a cherry on top to make you accept less flexibility is possible, but making these "kits" into entire subclasses of their own is probably not going to work. The special feature needs to be really useful for you to want to give up the ability to custommake your own battlemaster, both now and ten levels in the future.

Which is why I suggested kits. Keep it within the battlemaster subclass.
 

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I'd like to see a "4E Defender" style subclass that trades raw damage for abilities to protect allies and control the battlefield.

I'd also like to see more manouvers for the battlemaster, specifically "high level" manouvers that are more powerful but have a level requirement, so that when a battlemaster gains new manouvers as they level you're not stuck picking from the same manouvers that your didn't find attractive enough to choose at level 3.
 

It is hard to predict since the fighter class is definitely two classes with the battle master and ek, and the champion being simple just for the sake of nostalgia. So you have three directions to take the class with any given subclass. So which one do you use to represent a weapon master, kensai, samurai, cavalier, defender, etc.
Either of them depending on which you prefer.

Much of the class and its subclasses are designed to differ based on how you want to play rather than what you want to play.
 

WarpedAcorn

First Post
What do you mean?

My characters are level 15. Having access to a free renewable unstealable potion of healing that gives 1d10+15 hp back is way better than regular potions of healing, and is quite nice even compared to the options available at this lofty level.

Of course, if your party contains a healbot that generously spends all her spell slots on Heals and auras, it might not seem like much.

But then you can simply skip over Second Wind as something you don't really need.

For parties that doesn't have access to a healbot let me assure you it is a nice thing to have.

What I mean is that the ability does not scale well. At first level it has the potential of being a full heal, at second level a half heal, and so on. I can't argue that its a free heal that you always have and that is never not useful, but personally I haven't found myself getting any clutch uses out of the ability outside of the first few levels.

We do not have a healbot in our party (Battlemaster 4/Cleric 1, Warlock 5, Sorcerer 5, Bladesinger 4/Sorcerer 1), but maybe we have been fortunate in that the casters blast everything before it does too much damage.

I actually used Second Wind for the first time in awhile last session to top myself off after triggering a flame trap. Although I felt we were about to have a Short Rest, I mainly used it to conserve a HD use.
 

Patrick McGill

First Post
I'm happy with what they seem to have done with the PDK and the Monster Hunter in that they are basically BM 'kits' that narrow your options but grant you a different little ability for doing so. I really like the Monster Hunter UA, actually.

Unfortunately without a separate class I think we've got the warlord that the design space of the fighter allows for already. I could be wrong though.

I want a Fighter that uses Intelligence as a secondary ability. Perhaps being able to add it to his initiative when not surprised to simulate tactical advantage, or perhaps the initiative modifier increases his crit range. I like the idea of an intelligent tactician Fighter.

Edit: And to go off topic a bit I want Int to be used more often. Intelligence should have much more use than it already does. Warlocks should've been INT based, gosh darnit!
 


CapnZapp

Legend
What I mean is that the ability does not scale well. At first level it has the potential of being a full heal, at second level a half heal, and so on. I can't argue that its a free heal that you always have and that is never not useful, but personally I haven't found myself getting any clutch uses out of the ability outside of the first few levels.

We do not have a healbot in our party (Battlemaster 4/Cleric 1, Warlock 5, Sorcerer 5, Bladesinger 4/Sorcerer 1), but maybe we have been fortunate in that the casters blast everything before it does too much damage.

I actually used Second Wind for the first time in awhile last session to top myself off after triggering a flame trap. Although I felt we were about to have a Short Rest, I mainly used it to conserve a HD use.
Apologies for not being clear.

I don't think the argument "it scales badly" is a good argument for something being bad. Not by itself. If, however, the "bad scaling" leads to uselessness, it would be another story. But I just don't see that as the case here...

A Second Wind that provides a full heal at level 15 just as at level 1 would be very powerful, with large ramifications for the worldbuilding (fighters never stay injured for more than an hour at a time). Even the current Second Wind fully heals a 200 hp fighter in 8 hours flat.

But even with those campaign world issues aside, not every ability need to be Action Surge.

Action Sure is probably the most pure and well-scaling ability of all of D&D. At second level, it lets you take any action available to a 2nd level fighter. But at twentieth level, it lets you take any action available to a 20th level fighter. It is perfection. Scaling is flawless. Flexibility without limits is flawless. Absolutely the shining crown jewel of all of 5E design.

But while Second Wind is certainly not as strong an ability, it is not because of how it scales we should rate it.

I can understand, on a theoretical level, your argument. It would, in one sense, be more "elegant" if the ability always provided you with, say, 1/8th of your maximum hit points.

But not really. That would actually be a worse implementation in my view; needlessly forcing you to make a calculation in order to achieve a "pretty" rule. As well as being worthless at low level... In actual fact, the difference between being at maximum hp and close to death at low level is so small, it's not so overpowered to allow you to go from the latter to the former. After all, a monster can still bite your face clean off with a single chomp.

But at high levels, having hundreds of hit points means you seldom reach critically low levels, and for Second Wind to negate that vulnerability would be as overpowered as inappropriate. The Fighter has passed the phase where it needs the "crutch" of a Second Wind.

And a 20 hp free heal is still better than many heal-ups you have to purchase for money. The ability's usefulness just goes from short-term (in a single fight) to long- or at least medium-term (in a single day).
 
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Uchawi

First Post
Either of them depending on which you prefer.

Much of the class and its subclasses are designed to differ based on how you want to play rather than what you want to play.
With that stated it makes sense to me to offer a subclass for each type of archetype, i.e. sword mage for EK, intelligence based tactician for battle master, and a stance or forms based weapon specialist for champion. And make them all exlusive to the fighter so you don' have spells, maneuvers, or even styles bleed over into other classes like the spell casting hybrids, i.e. ranger and paladin.
 


Parmandur

Book-Friend
Yeah. The problem is that Battlemaster already does all of those things.



Giving a cherry on top to make you accept less flexibility is possible, but making these "kits" into entire subclasses of their own is probably not going to work. The special feature needs to be really useful for you to want to give up the ability to custommake your own battlemaster, both now and ten levels in the future.



Which is why I suggested kits. Keep it within the battlemaster subclass.


They've already tested the waters with several battle master variant subclasses, and with popular success per their surveys: more specific thematic battle master variants are likely to a high degree, [MENTION=697]mearls[/MENTION] has gone on record as regretting the battle master design as being flavorless and too open ended.
 

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