D&D 5E Question on Alert

[Gardens & Goblins]

The Alert feat would really ruin surprise birthday parties

Can feats 'not' be used? Say, I want you to surprise me for Christmas. Because always knowing what you got me, that's going to get old real quick.

Hmm..

 

[jaelis]

No, but there is a highly problematic rule that you are required to be in combat before you can attack someone.

Whether you're considered to be in combat or not carries with it a long list of assumptions about what's going in the world and who is paying attention to what, but being in combat is also just triggered by anyone thinking about making an attack within the next few seconds, whether or not any of those other assumptions currently apply. If you're about to make an attack, then everyone is automatically alerted that combat is going on before you can do what you're planning to do, even though you haven't actually done anything to alert anyone yet.

TBH, I think the surprise rules do pretty well at resolving that tension, except when they are circumvented by something like Alert.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

"I prepare to launch an attack"?

I don't think there is any rule that you are required to actually attack on the first round of combat. I suppose you could play that there is. But then if the target wins initiative and finds total cover, what would you do? I guess require the player to attack the cover? That seems a bit arbitrary to me as a player.

You know, I suppose another way to interpret the way I want to play it is that you go ahead and roll initiative as usual. If the target wins, they win. But you don't tell the target "someone is about to attack you." Rolling initiative is a metagame thing, there's no reason a character should be aware of it. So if it's a player just tell them to roll a d20. If they win, don't tell them anything. Presumably they spend their first round doing whatever it is they had been doing, and then get attacked (but without surprise). That has the same effect as how I'd play it, but avoids peoples' allergy to fixing initiative results.

Of course that would work best if you periodically ask the players to roll d20s for no reason, but that is anyway fun to do

Combat isn't initiated until someone actually does something for people to react to. Whether that is pulling a knife or someone else who has realised what you're up to doing something that initiates combat.

If someone "plans" to start combat, combat still doesn't start until they actually do something that starts combat.

 

[jaelis]

Combat isn't initiated until someone actually does something for people to react to. Whether that is pulling a knife or someone else who has realised what you're up to doing something that initiates combat.

If someone "plans" to start combat, combat still doesn't start until they actually do something that starts combat.

That aligns well with my personal view. But that means if the occurrence that starts combat is an actual attack, then resolving that attack must be the first thing that happens in the combat, no?

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

No, but there is a highly problematic rule that you are required to be in combat before you can attack someone.

Whether you're considered to be in combat or not carries with it a long list of assumptions about what's going in the world and who is paying attention to what, but being in combat is also just triggered by anyone thinking about making an attack within the next few seconds, whether or not any of those other assumptions currently apply. If you're about to make an attack, then everyone is automatically alerted that combat is going on before you can do what you're planning to do, even though you haven't actually done anything to alert anyone yet.

I was not aware of this. Do you have a PHB page no. I can brush up on this with please?

That aligns well with my personal view. But that means if the occurrence that starts combat is an actual attack, then resolving that attack must be the first thing that happens in the combat, no?

I'd have said that, assuming no-one was alerted by anything else beforehand, the attack would be the event that started combat, and then everyone starts rolling initiative.

However I wasn't aware of (or had forgotten) the rule about requiring to already be in combat before you can initiate an attack, or that mere intent is enough, so I'm going to check my understanding of that first.

 

[jaelis]

However I wasn't aware of (or had forgotten) the rule about requiring to already be in combat before you can initiate an attack, or that mere intent is enough, so I'm going to check my understanding of that first.

A relevant twitter discussion or two:
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/01/07...-an-unsuspecting-target-before-combat-begins/
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/12/23/are-attacks-allowed-outside-of-initiative-combat/

 

[Arial Black]

So it sounds to me like, in your game, Alert basically does give the character a supernatural warning when someone is planning to attack them? Which is certainly a legitimate way to read it. But if I were playing an assassin in such a game, I would try to neutralize it by hiring a bunch of people to plan on attacking the target as often as possible, without carrying through. Eventually I'd expect the target to stop paying attention.

For a non-supernatural example in fiction, try Captain America. He doesn't have super-senses or any superpowers; everything he does is within human possibility.

And yet....whatever happens, he's ready for it. He didn't know it was going to happen, but he's never caught flat-footed (to use a phrase advisedly). That's what being immune to surprised entails; it doesn't mean that you can't be astonished by a turn of events, nor does it mean you automatically succeed on every Perception/Insight check.

It just means that, whatever happens, you can use Reactions before your first turn, and can move and act normally on your first turn.

As for making plans to deal with an enemy's immunity to surprise (if they somehow find out about it), fair enough! Foe's will evolve their tactics.

Also, sensible creatures would adapt their behaviour to their own abilities. If I obtained immunity to surprise, I'd keep it quiet, try to disguise the fact. If I got that 'bad feeling', I might take an action that doesn't make it obvious that I'm not surprised: cast a Subtle spell, take the Dodge action (which means I'm ready to move out of the way, not that I'm cart-wheeling about the place!), pretend I need to urinate and go behind a boulder, even Ready an action for when/if an enemy does 'X'.

Even without the current surprise/immunity subject coming up, the DM can always start a combat, deliberately prompting players to waste spell slots and resources, having the baddies run away. Repeatedly. Annoyingly.

It will certainly have an effect, not only on the PCs, not only on the players (who start to get miffed), but also on the DM when he is forced to swallow his own DM's screen the PCs start to do it to the monsters.

 

[jaelis]

For a non-supernatural example in fiction, try Captain America. He doesn't have super-senses or any superpowers; everything he does is within human possibility.

And yet....whatever happens, he's ready for it. He didn't know it was going to happen, but he's never caught flat-footed (to use a phrase advisedly). That's what being immune to surprised entails; it doesn't mean that you can't be astonished by a turn of events, nor does it mean you automatically succeed on every Perception/Insight check.

It just means that, whatever happens, you can use Reactions before your first turn, and can move and act normally on your first turn.

As for making plans to deal with an enemy's immunity to surprise (if they somehow find out about it), fair enough! Foe's will evolve their tactics.

Also, sensible creatures would adapt their behaviour to their own abilities. If I obtained immunity to surprise, I'd keep it quiet, try to disguise the fact. If I got that 'bad feeling', I might take an action that doesn't make it obvious that I'm not surprised: cast a Subtle spell, take the Dodge action (which means I'm ready to move out of the way, not that I'm cart-wheeling about the place!), pretend I need to urinate and go behind a boulder, even Ready an action for when/if an enemy does 'X'.

Even without the current surprise/immunity subject coming up, the DM can always start a combat, deliberately prompting players to waste spell slots and resources, having the baddies run away. Repeatedly. Annoyingly.

It will certainly have an effect, not only on the PCs, not only on the players (who start to get miffed), but also on the DM when he is forced to swallow his own DM's screen the PCs start to do it to the monsters.

Well, I don't disagree with any of that. But I'd still say an arrow from the dark is an arrow from the dark. If you have a reaction ability that lets you dodge, I'm all for it. But I doubt even Captain America could dodge before the arrow is actually fired

 

[Phazonfish]

(The fact that this character can't be surprised, even when distracted or asleep, may not be obvious to an observer.)

Take note that this character CAN be surprised while asleep, the feat says "while conscious".

Other feats can be negated, though. If you have the feat that makes you awesome with hand crossbows, you can still be locked in a cell with no weapons. If you increase your Dex by +2, you can still find yourself in a situation where you have disadvantage on Dex checks. So while the wording certainly suggests that the feat is unbeatable, it would be exceptional if that actually held true in all circumstances, since equivalent features can be negated.

That's kinda different though. The player still benefits from Crossbow Expert and +2 Dex in the situations you described. You still don't have disadvantage on ranged attack rolls while engaged and its easier to make a check at disadvantage if you have a higher modifier. Also, the player knows when they take Crossbow Expert that they can be disarmed, while a player taking Alert doesn't know in what way you will attempt to handwave why it didn't work (unless they are unconscious, in which case they can't complain).

 

[Arial Black]

Well, I don't disagree with any of that. But I'd still say an arrow from the dark is an arrow from the dark. If you have a reaction ability that lets you dodge, I'm all for it. But I doubt even Captain America could dodge before the arrow is actually fired

He could take the Dodge action, which would mean that he would impose disadvantage on any attack rolls from any attacks he can see coming towards him.

As long as the arrow can be seen at any point on its journey from bow to target, Dodge will be effective. If the arrow's journey cannot be seen then the archer won't suffer disadvantage on the shot.

As for dodging before the arrow is fired, this is why superheroes like Batman don't get turned into bloody carcasses; Batman isn't faster than the bullet, he can dodge faster than the shooter can adjust his aim.