D&D 5E In fifth-edition D&D, what is gold for?

[CapnZapp]

I hear ya, and I hope you get what you're looking for ... but I wouldn't necessarily count on it.

I will suggest checking out some of the pretty cool pricing guides other people have pointed you to just in case. I know that they aren't official WoTC, but some of them are excellent.

Trust me, I have.

(And also believe me when I say I'm not holding my breath. Just that MMearls seems to acknowledge there is a need for a way to spend gold in adventures does lighten a glimmer of hope, though)

 

[Uller]

Long way < all the way

You might not realize it, but I personally consider it a HUGE win for the system to be an official first-party product.

Why you may ask.

Have you read the "One Year of DM's Guild" thread? It makes it painfully obvious that the only products that get any real amount of discussion, feedback and analysis are WotC's own print publications.

Oh I know. I'd definitely prefer something official and more detailed than the rules we have. But as you said, that's unlikely. Even in the wake of Mearls' quote I'm not holding my breath.

My PCs just finished up a long stint of downtime. They came away with ~6,000gp each in the last adventure One of them bought a +1 Ring of Protection. Not exactly earth shattering for 12th level PCs but it made the player feel like he got a reward.

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[Ilbranteloth]

While discussing xp for gold, I stumbled upon this blog post. I found it so central I wanted to post a summary and discuss it here.

The background is familiar (summarizing the blog posts leading up to the linked one):

The original Dungeons & Dragons game awarded characters an experience point for each gold piece they claimed from the dungeon. See “The fun and realism of unrealistically awarding experience points for gold.” This provided a simple method of awarding non-combat experience and motivating players to loot dungeons—the activity that made the game fun.

Gary had designed the Chainmail miniature rules that Dave used, so a progression from green adventurer to battlefield champion to baron seemed natural to both men. The original D&D game includes prices for castle structures and ships, along with costs for the men at arms and sailors needed to build a kingdom. The game served up riches, but the wealth led PCs out of the dungeon and onto the miniature battlefield.

This scheme suffered one problem: Almost no one went on to the stronghold-building, army-raising part of the game.

Th[e] plan unraveled when nobody chose to abandon the dungeon-crawling fun of their D&D game to put their characters in a different, miniature-battle game. Characters never spent their wealth on armies, fleets, and castles.

Ultimately, none of the revenue-draining schemes lasted, because D&D players hate losing cash with nearly as much venom as they hate losing magical gear.

The Stronghold Builder’s Guidebook tried to raise enthusiasm for the end game, but even the authors write, “Lounging about the stronghold day and night, engaging in the domestic dramas of daily life isn’t the sort of thing that stirs the blood of great heroes.”

The fifth-edition game holds to the tradition of making PCs rich, so DMs running campaigns and organizers of public play face the challenge of making gold good for something—or breaking tradition.

Unlike Third- and fourth-edition, this edition offers no obvious outlet for the PCs’ wealth at higher levels. Earlier editions empowered PCs to buy magic items. PCs spent their gold on equipment that enhanced their power. The DMGs showed the wealth that PCs required to beat the monsters.​

Then DM David explores three ways to fix this.

http://dmdavid.com/tag/in-fifth-edition-dd-what-is-gold-for-three-principles-of-granting-gold/

For me, they are for what they have always been for. The same things people throughout history have used money for. Fun, power, life in general.

Similar to the original Gygax approach, Ed Greenwood's characters flesh out a world where life exists.

In other words, what gold is for isn't a game question, or a question of rules. It's a question of story and world building.

The stories in my campaigns are largely written by the characters. Why? Because the story is that of their lives. I think Game of Thrones is a great starting point for thinking of the world as a whole. Compare it to real life, and other fictional worlds. What are the driving forces? Love. Power. Sex. Money. Religion. The good characters or societies practice moderation and consideration for these, and the evil characters and societies do no. But most D&D campaigns ignore the love, sex, and religion, and focus just on the money and power. What's more, there aren't any consequences for the characters wandering around killing monsters and taking their treasure.

If the PCs discovered some lost tomb rumored to hold legendary treasures, wouldn't the Lord of the land have something to say about their ownership of said treasure? Other bands, good and evil, attempting to recover the same treasure? What about the local temples or even townsfolk and what they think about tomb robbers? When they return to town, what about thieves? Scam artists?

When creating characters, I ask my players to think about what they use their money for in their own lives. This is in part a character question. Most of us spend our money on hobbies, things we like, we often purchase things more for form than function. It also means that treasures in my campaigns are often the same sort of things. If you were to come to my "lair" you'd find very little cash lying around. Lots of things worth some money, at least to the right buyer, but most of it spent on things that have little intrinsic value.

Then consider monstrous humanoids. Why do they have a lot of coins? Do they have a coin-based economy? They might like shiny things, and such, but weapons, armor, and things of those nature might have more value when they loot a body. Gems and jewelry might also have some value, although I'm not sure I've really seen anybody mentioning orcs wearing a lot of jewelry. Sure, if they are working for a villain they might be getting treasure for them, but what (multi)human society finds of value doesn't necessarily translate to orcish, ogreish, or whatever.

It's not uncommon for most characters to not even have a home, much less a family. The majority of the characters in my campaigns have both, so coins are always in need to pay for regular expenses. When we get a bonus we might go out to an expensive dinner (or do so on our birthday), but in D&D characters always go to the same seedy taverns and pay a few coppers for a meal.

What would be a good comparison to the "adventurer" economy? What about the mob? Lottery winners? Or entertainers? Movie stars, musicians, or sports players seem to stereotypically come from nothing and then make lots of money. And often spend it quite readily on parties, meals, houses, cars, and whatever else strikes their fancy. It's also not uncommon for them to end up broke later on because the cash flow stops, and they never considered that they wouldn't always be making lots of money.

In a lot of games, the entire existence of the characters is to go to the next dungeon. That's it. They have no existence outside of their "career." Flesh out the characters and the world and you'll find that this sort of question doesn't really exist. They're heading out to the next dungeon because they lost their last haul to gambling, spent it on a vacation home in the mountains (which was promptly occupied by orcs and three ogres as soon as they left), redecorating the living room and the new stallion. Oh, and that investment in the mithril mine that went belly up. And outdoing the rival adventurers with the hunting trip to the Graypeaks for Crag Cats.

 

[Caliburn101]

Yes - and it's a self-defeating view of the issue.

If your players don't want to spend their wealth on stuff other than magical items et al, then don't have much gold in your game, or give them magic item shops.

This is a non-problem for a decent GM.

5th Edition allows the GM to decide how to run their game - but because every little thing isn't explicitly dictated by the rules, you get short sighted people who really should analyse things less and use their own imagination more.

As a GM and group it is YOUR world. he rules regulate - they do not dictate...

 

[CapnZapp]

Yes - and it's a self-defeating view of the issue.

If your players don't want to spend their wealth on stuff other than magical items et al, then don't have much gold in your game, or give them magic item shops.

This is a non-problem for a decent GM.

5th Edition allows the GM to decide how to run their game - but because every little thing isn't explicitly dictated by the rules, you get short sighted people who really should analyse things less and use their own imagination more.

As a GM and group it is YOUR world. he rules regulate - they do not dictate...

You seriously need to stop telling others they're playing the game wrong. And stop calling us not decent GMs just because this is a problem for us.

Your so-called "advice" to "give them magic item shops" is absolutely derisional and I'm calling you out on it. Unless you would try to profess ignorance of all the discussion that has preceded this one, where we show how non-trivial this task is.

Adding magic shoppes is not easy. It is something we want WotC's official support for.

In fact, guidelines for magic item creation and pricing (based on utility and not rarity) was a key part of the 3rd edition, and it means 5th edition is still missing full support for this previous edition.

Luckily there seems to be something happening on that front.

A product you do not have to purchase if its such a non-problem for you, I might add.

 

[Caliburn101]

@CapnZapp

I disagree entirely - the task is entirely straightforward.

Prices already exist for all magical items, and for crafting purposes item blueprints are available for each and every one of them (except artefacts) as treasure given out at the GMs discretion - like all treasure is. This is all already in the rules. You may think the prices aren't 'right', or you might think them a little generic - but they are there, and your opinion that this constitutes a 'problem' is actually an expression of your preference.

If you don't like the crafting rules, then what you are looking for is an alternative - not a 'fix' to a 'problem'.

These are different things - and if more detailed rules come out to support official play for instance, then the 3rd Edition problem of magical item-cloned adventurers where everyone has the same items potentially once more becomes a thing. WoTC clearly wanted magical items to be special and rarer than 3rd Edition - not produced en masse. I hope any rules like the Articifer class that come out keep this design philosophy intact.

I find it quite revealing that in your discussion with me that you continue to focus so heavily on magical items as being 'the thing' when it comes to the use of gold in a campaign. Once again your demonstrate your preference in this regard. There was a deliberate design decision by WoTC to make magical items rare and optional. You might not like that, but you can decide to run your own game filled with magical items and the shoppes that sell them - and all without specific rules for every variation of what you might decide.

Giving the GM more flexibility was another deliberate design decision by WoTC - so as not to straight-jacket them into certain modes of play. Producing detailed rules and guideline on every conceivable type of campaign meta as regards wealth and magical items is the logical extension of what you would like to see.

It would be a huge waste of time for WoTC to cater to that.

Oh - and the word is 'derisory' - and even when spelled correctly is the wrong word. I was actually being dismissive of the argument.

Hardly an excuse for the flame war you seem determined to start...

 

[GameOgre]

In fifth-edition D&D, what is gold for?

Pimping out my Ride! Well first off My Champ loves to look Good! It's not enough to have a good horse, oh no! I need a GREAT Horse! A Magic Horse! Pulling a chariot with custom seats and nice rims...my latest are solid platinum with diamond studded spokes. I also have a full wagon (two story) that my peoples drive behind me so I get a chance to relax in style even out in the wilderness.

I mean come on. I work hard! I save the world on a semi- regular bases, I deserve to look good and FEEL good doing it. I'm working on a flying ship so I can really make time and stand out but I have not gathered together enough funds yet.

 

[Uller]

@

Hardly an excuse for the flame war you seem determined to start...

I think when someone expresses an opinion and your response infers that that makes them a crappy DM you probably shouldn't be surprised when they get ticked.

I've struggled with giving some of my players interesting things to do with gold. I'm not going to rehash it all now. But your comment is insulting.

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[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Jester David]

Your so-called "advice" to "give them magic item shops" is absolutely derisional and I'm calling you out on it. Unless you would try to profess ignorance of all the discussion that has preceded this one, where we show how non-trivial this task is.

Adding magic shoppes is not easy. It is something we want WotC's official support for.

I haven't had any problems adding magic shops to my game.
How are you having trouble? What steps or aspects are causing problems or friction? How can we help you with your game?

In my case, I just treated a shop like a treasure hoard that only had magic items and rolled. In addition to the hoard result, I included a lot more common and consumable items, adding a few extra rolls on those tables. And I also included a few mundane magical items that player wouldn't want, like sweeping brooms and spoons that stirred your tea for you.
Then I looked price of the item, and decided where in the range the price would fall. For one item, to add some variety, I rolled a percentile dice and increased the base price by that percentage. (I imagine I could have set the price in the middle, and then rolled to either increase or decrease the price by a percentage.)

In my case. I also flavoured the store as more a curio shop and less a dedicated magical store. (I don't know how a business would stay afloat selling only magical items to adventurers. That feels like a sporting goods store that exclusively sells to League players.) So there were charms and crystals, shrunken heads and tarokka cards, spell components and tonics.

When my players wanted something specific, I gave a small chance the town would have a given magical item (if common or uncommon). They'd need a big city for a rare item, such as the City of Brass or the campaign equivalent of Waterdeep.
In one case, I didn't just have the items available, but had the seller know where to acquire the items, and told the party to come back after a few days. Because I didn't just want a magic sword to be available, I offered the character a different magical item that would still allow them to improve in their skill set, albeit in a less numerical way.

And, of course, as the DM, I also have the right to just ignore the dice and give my players what I want or decide there's no way it's available.

In fact, guidelines for magic item creation and pricing (based on utility and not rarity) was a key part of the 3rd edition, and it means 5th edition is still missing full support for this previous edition.

It's also missing saving throws versus wands/rods/staves, hit adjustments based on armour, in depth grappling, prestige classes, kits, and monsters with feats.
I don't think "it was in Edition #" is a good enough reason to include a rules element.

Luckily there seems to be something happening on that front.

I wouldn't get your hopes up.
IIRC Mearls' talked about downtime rules and such. Meals' and 5e's philosophy to magic items means the advice in Unearthed Arcana will likely be crunch light and fairly abstract. As such, the content on spending coin will likely be more carousing and expanded examples of building a keep or investing on a business.

Magic items effectively unbalance the game. They're a controlled way of breaking the game that is balanced by having the DM control their distribution. Firm player creation of permanent magic items takes away that control and greatly imbalances the game. It's akin to giving PCs the ability to just give themselves a new feat with the expenditure of gold.