D&D 5E In fifth-edition D&D, what is gold for?

There were a LOT more books in past editions. I think they need to be a little more choosy in the content that gets updated.
And a lot of overlap, so maybe not as bad as all that.

(And, y'know, even though I don't feel there's a strong need for more/better item-creation rules, it seems magic item creation was in the DMG in most editions, and even in the PH1 in one case.)

5e is only "unbalanced" when the sample size of other RPGs it is compared against is exceedingly small or very simple.
I don't see how that makes balance more of a concern.

Which is kinda the definition of "imbalance"
The best definition I ever heard of game balance was "presenting many viable & meaningful choices to the player." Magic items placed by the DM could hurt that - or improve it. That's what I mean about magic items in 5e being usable by the DM as a tool, including usable to improve balance.

The players *might* be balanced against each other, but that's not the only measure. If you need to change the monsters, the power level of encounters, the content of a published adventure, it is unbalanced.
Meh. You probably want to change those things, anyway.

Yes. Power gamers who want to "win" will seldom have problems with things that make it easier...
Well, more interesting, anyway. And, y'know, playstyle supported by a past edition. 'Major' one, even.
 

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And a lot of overlap, so maybe not as bad as all that.
(And, y'know, even though I don't feel there's a strong need for more/better item-creation rules, it seems magic item creation was in the DMG in most editions, and even in the PH1 in one case.)
But, of course, crafting items *is* in the DMG. Pages 128-129.

Other than 3e, magic item creation rules were... simplistic. (How much does it cost to make a +1 sword in 1e or 2e?)
Even 4e moved away from that design, being more akin to the 5e system where you did a ritual, paid X, and just get an item. Only the prices didn't have the same variability. (And, IIRC, there was no difference between crafting and buying.)

The best definition I ever heard of game balance was "presenting many viable & meaningful choices to the player." Magic items placed by the DM could hurt that - or improve it. That's what I mean about magic items in 5e being usable by the DM as a tool, including usable to improve balance.
That's an... interesting definition of game balance.
 

But, of course, crafting items *is* in the DMG. Pages 128-129.
I believe that's been pointed out, above.

That's an... interesting definition of game balance.
It is, it gets to the point of balance, not just superficial symptoms of imbalance. You can think of ultimate balance as everyone being 'the same,' for instance, but it fails dramatically to fit that definition. It's not an exacting standard, but it is a solid one, I find.
 

That's an... interesting definition of game balance.

It's the one I go by. As long as players have interesting choices that allow their character to contribute, the game is 'balanced' with respect to the group. If a player feels like his character has no viable or interesting choices then something is off. In some cases this is a player problem. I others it is a DM problem. Sometimes it is a system problem or a combination of all.

For the topic at hand, that's where the lack of options for spending gold on marginal crunchy improvements to the ability of the PC to adventure better has become a (very minor) problem for me. As I mentioned up thread, I have two players that happily spend gold on RP related things. In the run up to our next adventure they will be rewarded for that by having a greater effect on the story.

That sort of use of gold is outright uninteresting to one of my players and another just doesn't care that much either way. I can present options for the one player all day long...hirelings/henchmen, a castle, a private mercenary force, membership into an elite guild and so on...he'll look at it and wonder which stat do those things increase. Now...I can get annoyed at this or I can give him a little of what he wants. He wants to spend gold on gear. So I give him a handful of magic items to choose from with a price and an amount of time he will have to spend and he decides what he wants to buy. I don't give him things that overpower the rest of the group and I make sure the choices the rest of the group made have an impact on the game as much as the magic items do.

I'm an experienced DM and with the help of the magic item price pdf I can genereally wing it. It'd be nice to have some more support than that in the rules but not the end of the world for me. But I can see how a newer DM with newer players that have the same expectation as the player I mentioned might run into trouble.
 

It's the one I go by. As long as players have interesting choices that allow their character to contribute, the game is 'balanced' with respect to the group. If a player feels like his character has no viable or interesting choices then something is off. In some cases this is a player problem. I others it is a DM problem. Sometimes it is a system problem or a combination of all.

For the topic at hand, that's where the lack of options for spending gold on marginal crunchy improvements to the ability of the PC to adventure better has become a (very minor) problem for me. As I mentioned up thread, I have two players that happily spend gold on RP related things. In the run up to our next adventure they will be rewarded for that by having a greater effect on the story.

That sort of use of gold is outright uninteresting to one of my players and another just doesn't care that much either way. I can present options for the one player all day long...hirelings/henchmen, a castle, a private mercenary force, membership into an elite guild and so on...he'll look at it and wonder which stat do those things increase. Now...I can get annoyed at this or I can give him a little of what he wants. He wants to spend gold on gear. So I give him a handful of magic items to choose from with a price and an amount of time he will have to spend and he decides what he wants to buy. I don't give him things that overpower the rest of the group and I make sure the choices the rest of the group made have an impact on the game as much as the magic items do.

I'm an experienced DM and with the help of the magic item price pdf I can genereally wing it. It'd be nice to have some more support than that in the rules but not the end of the world for me. But I can see how a newer DM with newer players that have the same expectation as the player I mentioned might run into trouble.
It's interesting, but it's a definition that really seems to only apply to D&D and similar games. That definition gets funky when applied to card games, board games, videos games, etc.
The most balanced game possible is Rock, Paper, Scissors. What's the interesting decision there? Are they meaningful? Varied?
 

Each choice has 1 in 3 chance of success, failure or tie. Each player has a similar number of options with a similar chance for success or failure toward reaching their goal (winning).

In D&D the goal isn't necessarily winning. It's surviving, making an interesting story and having an impact on that story.
 

... This is a non-problem for a decent GM. ...

... you get short sighted people who really should analyse things less and use their own imagination more. ...
... your opinion that this constitutes a 'problem' is actually an expression of your preference. ...

... what you are looking for is an alternative - not a 'fix' to a 'problem'. ...
You seriously need to stop telling others they're playing the game wrong. And stop calling us not decent GMs just because this is a problem for us.

Your so-called "advice" to "give them magic item shops" is absolutely derisional and I'm calling you out on it. Unless you would try to profess ignorance of all the discussion that has preceded this one, where we show how non-trivial this task is. ...
Please take it easy, folks. After all, this is just an internet forum about pretending to be an elf - not the freakin' Thunderdome.

Caliburn101, please refrain from making personal attacks (including implying those who don't share your opinion aren't 'decent GMs' or whatever; see first quote) or trying to 'correct' someone about how they should feel about something (see second quote).

CapnZapp, if you think someone is behaving inappropriately, please use the report function instead of going on a tirade. Agitatedly trying to take matters into your own hands will often accomplish little besides further inflaming an existing altercation - or sparking off a new one.

For reference, the rules.

If you have any questions, PM me.

-Darkness,
EN World moderator
 

.It's also missing saving throws versus wands/rods/staves, hit adjustments based on armour, in depth grappling, prestige classes, kits, and monsters with feats.
I don't think "it was in Edition #" is a good enough reason to include a rules element.

With the exception of (organization-specific) prestige classes, none of the legacy mechanics you describe are reflected in the campaign setting itself. Magic item economics are, and that makes a huge difference. When a later edition fails to offer mechanical support (or offers mechanical support many players find insufficient) for elements that are visible in the game world, it creates continuity problems for any legacy campaign settings and for new settings intended to support the same playstyles as those legacy settings.

Many players want each new edition to continue to (better) support the way they already play D&D, because their enjoyment of such is why they play in the first place. A new system's failure to (adequately) mechanically support elements visible in the game setting, like magic item economics, is thus far more problematic than simply (e.g.) changing the way grappling is modelled.

What exactly is that "something"? Because from my point of view that "something" appears to be blind faith - a false belief that because the rules come from WotC they are somehow going to be inherently better for one's own group than what one's own group can come up with.

Adopting official rules is easy. They're already there, and the only buy-in required from the players is a simple agreement to rely on the published work of an acknowledged authority.

Adopting house rules is harder. In addition to the time and energy spent to create the rules in the first place, the DM requires the players to buy-in to the specifics of the chosen solution. Each (usually tacit) request that the players buy-in to a new house rule uses up a variable amout of the DM's social capital, depending on the scope and impact of the house rule (and, most importantly, the tolerance of the inidividual players for houserules). Tweaking mechanics on the fly (ala "I know the rules say this, but let's run it that way, I think it would be more fun") is relatively cheap in terms of expended capital. Introducing new/replacement subsystems, particularly if they're written down (e.g. new magic item crafting and pricing) can be quite costly. That many DMs have sufficient social capital to make such changes without harming their game doesn't help the DMs who don't have enough.

In case that got too abstract, let me try to illustrate the same phenomenon with a more concrete example. Assume two tables playing some RPG. Both tables are using identical grapple rules. At the first table, these are the rules from the book. At the second table (in a different universe with a different book) these are house rules. Further, assume that these grappling rules are awful.

I assert that the players at the second table will be more dissatisfied with the grappling rules than the players at the first table. The reason is because at the second table, the players had to buy-in to the content of the house rules rather than just the reliance on a recognized outside authority. In other words, the players at the second table will be more dissatisfied because the DM who made the awful rules is present and not fixing the problem, whereas at the first table the source of the problem is inaccessible, making the continued use of the awful rules more tolerable.

I'd further assert that the difference in satisfaction can in some situations be significant enough that flawed official rules may be more acceptable than flawed houserules even when the houserules are superior, just because the source of the flaw is closer to hand in the case of house rules.

Does my explanation answer your question?
 
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With the exception of Eberron, which I would argue is sui generis, what campaign setting comes close to requiring mechanical support for a magic item economics?

Not Greyhawk.
Not FR.
Not Mystara.
Certainly not Dark Sun.
Certainly not Dragonlance, nor Ravenloft, nor Planescape.

I'd be hard pressed to think of a single campaign setting (outside of, perhaps, Eberron) that has a magic item economy baked-in. And, TBH, Eberron would require a lot more work than just a list of magic item prices.

In PoL, getting magic items was (initially) pretty easy compared to some other editions.

Plus, I have my campaign world with street fairs filled with magic items.
I hope you realize that this is not solely about my setting :)
 

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