D&D 5E Need a better houserule to fix Bladesinger's mechanics not supporting lore issue

[Sword of Spirit]

Thanks for the replies. I think I've been able to use them to come up with a better way of house ruling it. It require three separate rules, so that's a minus, but they are all single sentence rules.

I should clarify that when I'm thinking of Bladesinger, I'm think pre-3e. The original Bladesinger was a kit for the AD&D demi-human multiclass, which has its closest equivalent in a carefully leveled 3e Eldritch Knight or a 4e fighter/wizard hybrid.

5e has, so far, failed to provide a truly good presentation of that sort of archetype. While the Eldritch Knight is a fun full fighter who dabbles in magic, being limited to the 4th level spell list really steals thunder from the mage aspect. Bladesinger appears to be the attempt to better represent the fighter/mage (in AD&D, it was limited to elves and half-elves even without the 2e kit). It is awfully squishy, so Toughness is just about a feat tax, but if it would at least allow the wearing of chain shirts it is at least a better fit than the Eldritch Knight.

I'd really like a better fighter/wizard hybrid, so I'm still hoping for the gestalt/hybrid rules that have been spoken of in the past to actually come out. But for now, I'm just going to discuss the Bladesinger on concept, and accept that they are squishy and lean heavily to the wizard side.

Here are the three house rules that I think can together get the job done:

1) They can use either Dexterity or Strength for attacks and damage with the weapon they gain proficiency in from Bladesinger.

This follows the precedent of the monk's ability, and allows them to focus on the longsword for full traditional support, or choose any other appropriate weapon for other styles.

However, this makes them a Dexterity based warrior, which unlocks a whole mess of problems I was trying to avoid. But I think I can fix those now.

2) They gain proficiency in chain shirts, and can use Bladesong while wearing them.

While there is little precedent in getting proficiency in individual armors, rather than a whole type, there is such a precedent for weapons, and at least a hint of it with druid armors.

This means that until their Dex mod is +4, chain shirt is just as good as studded leather for them (remember, as a medium armor it is limited to a +2 Dex mod). This is huge, because it means that (barring high rolled stats) they can start the game in chain shirts and take no penalty for doing so. This also does not increase their power, as the only time this would give them a better AC than studded leather would be if their Dex mod was +2 or less. Mage armor is still just as good even then.

One thing I hadn't really thought of is that mage armor can give them a better AC than light armor anyway, and the same thing is going to apply to the chain shirt.

So, in practice they start off with a chain shirt for the same AC they would normally start off with, until their Dex mod is +4, at which point chain shirt becomes inferior. They can then either switch to studded leather or spend the slot on mage armor. Since they are going to have more spell slots at that point, spending one becomes more appealing. We can easily keep our Bladesinger out of studded leather entirely if we choose, without sacrificing AC.

Now, I don't really like the idea that chain shirt becomes obsolete (or at least that it becomes so before studded leather does), but the fact that it remains just as good as studded leather until level 4 or 8 makes it work well as their traditional favored armor.

3) An elf or half-elf may treat elven chain as light armor.

What this does is re-enthrone elven chain as the favored Bladesinger armor like it should be. The only armor that is better for a Bladesinger than elven chain is +3 studded leather, which is significantly rarer than elven chain.

Not only that, but it makes it better than mage armor.

My original concern about something like this is that it would make it too strong; but looking at it, being only 1 point of AC better than mage armor isn't really a problem for a rare magic item that is pretty much designed for you.

Letting it work for elves and half-elves in general means that elven rogues, bards, other wizards, and Dexterity based warriors are also going to find this armor very appealing, while still letting it be effectively better for a Bladesinger because it allows them to use their special class ability that has otherwise strict limitations.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

A few comments:

(a) It's been observed before on these boards that in 5E, the bastard sword kind of killed the old longsword and took its name. Which is appropriate, since "longsword" is historically a term for that big usually-two-handed weapon, and D&D had always been a little off in using the term for a smaller usually-one-handed weapon. Point is, if you're looking for the traditional smaller usually-one-handed weapon of the bladesinger, don't look at the entry on the weapon table labeled "longsword". Look at the rapier, scratch out the word "rapier", and write in "arming sword". And as it happens, the rapier arming sword is already a finesse weapon, so no change needed there.

(b) Yeah, 5E's treatment of chainmail and elven chain is weird. I just make elven chain light armor. It's mechanically equivalent to +1 studded leather -- good stuff, but hardly game-breaking.

(c) Since I don't actually own SCAG, I run elven mage-warriors as Oath of the Ancients paladins using Int instead of Cha for casting and whatnot. Which does an end run around the entire proficiency problem.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Note that the big thing about Elven Chain is that it is coveted by all arcane spellcasters because it allows them to cast spells while using it. Making it Light Armour rather than being automatically proficient in it would actually be a downgrade for most users.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Note that the big thing about Elven Chain is that it is coveted by all arcane spellcasters because it allows them to cast spells while using it. Making it Light Armour rather than being automatically proficient in it would actually be a downgrade for most users.

I'm not removing that feature, just adding an additional benefit for elves and half-elves. Technically it should probably bump it up to a very rare item at that point, but I'll probably leave it on the higher side of rare.

 

[cbwjm]

Thanks for the replies. I think I've been able to use them to come up with a better way of house ruling it. It require three separate rules, so that's a minus, but they are all single sentence rules.

I should clarify that when I'm thinking of Bladesinger, I'm think pre-3e. The original Bladesinger was a kit for the AD&D demi-human multiclass, which has its closest equivalent in a carefully leveled 3e Eldritch Knight or a 4e fighter/wizard hybrid.

5e has, so far, failed to provide a truly good presentation of that sort of archetype. While the Eldritch Knight is a fun full fighter who dabbles in magic, being limited to the 4th level spell list really steals thunder from the mage aspect. Bladesinger appears to be the attempt to better represent the fighter/mage (in AD&D, it was limited to elves and half-elves even without the 2e kit). It is awfully squishy, so Toughness is just about a feat tax, but if it would at least allow the wearing of chain shirts it is at least a better fit than the Eldritch Knight.

I'd really like a better fighter/wizard hybrid, so I'm still hoping for the gestalt/hybrid rules that have been spoken of in the past to actually come out. But for now, I'm just going to discuss the Bladesinger on concept, and accept that they are squishy and lean heavily to the wizard side.

Here are the three house rules that I think can together get the job done:

1) They can use either Dexterity or Strength for attacks and damage with the weapon they gain proficiency in from Bladesinger.

This follows the precedent of the monk's ability, and allows them to focus on the longsword for full traditional support, or choose any other appropriate weapon for other styles.

However, this makes them a Dexterity based warrior, which unlocks a whole mess of problems I was trying to avoid. But I think I can fix those now.

2) They gain proficiency in chain shirts, and can use Bladesong while wearing them.

While there is little precedent in getting proficiency in individual armors, rather than a whole type, there is such a precedent for weapons, and at least a hint of it with druid armors.

This means that until their Dex mod is +4, chain shirt is just as good as studded leather for them (remember, as a medium armor it is limited to a +2 Dex mod). This is huge, because it means that (barring high rolled stats) they can start the game in chain shirts and take no penalty for doing so. This also does not increase their power, as the only time this would give them a better AC than studded leather would be if their Dex mod was +2 or less. Mage armor is still just as good even then.

One thing I hadn't really thought of is that mage armor can give them a better AC than light armor anyway, and the same thing is going to apply to the chain shirt.

So, in practice they start off with a chain shirt for the same AC they would normally start off with, until their Dex mod is +4, at which point chain shirt becomes inferior. They can then either switch to studded leather or spend the slot on mage armor. Since they are going to have more spell slots at that point, spending one becomes more appealing. We can easily keep our Bladesinger out of studded leather entirely if we choose, without sacrificing AC.

Now, I don't really like the idea that chain shirt becomes obsolete (or at least that it becomes so before studded leather does), but the fact that it remains just as good as studded leather until level 4 or 8 makes it work well as their traditional favored armor.

3) An elf or half-elf may treat elven chain as light armor.

What this does is re-enthrone elven chain as the favored Bladesinger armor like it should be. The only armor that is better for a Bladesinger than elven chain is +3 studded leather, which is significantly rarer than elven chain.

Not only that, but it makes it better than mage armor.

My original concern about something like this is that it would make it too strong; but looking at it, being only 1 point of AC better than mage armor isn't really a problem for a rare magic item that is pretty much designed for you.

Letting it work for elves and half-elves in general means that elven rogues, bards, other wizards, and Dexterity based warriors are also going to find this armor very appealing, while still letting it be effectively better for a Bladesinger because it allows them to use their special class ability that has otherwise strict limitations.

Just in regard to the strength or dexterity use for the weapon that they gain from bladesinger, you may want it to clarify it to include racial weapons since elves are already proficient with the longsword which means that they won't actually gain the ability to use one with dexterity unless you allow them to choose it again.

 

[Rocksome]

I'm confused.

Elven Chain


You gain a +1 bonus to AC while you wear this armor. You are considered proficient with this armor even if you lack proficiency with Medium Armor.

What's this discussion about Elven Chain proficiency? I wouldn't make Elven Chain a light armor (that comes with all kinds of balance concerns) I'd simply allow Bladesong to work in Elven Chain.

Bladesinger was a 2e kit from the Complete Book of Elves (1993),in 2e alone it was well predated by the elven chain (1989). Elven chain was original a special feature for elf wizards it's usefulness to Bladesingers was a happy coincidence.

In 2e, Bladesingers used Strength for attack and damage just like anyone else. I don't see how forcing them to be Strength based in this edition is any different. That being said, the only difference between a rapier and a longsword is damage type and the fact that a rapier is finesse while a long sword can be wielded in two hands. Given that bladesong cannot be used two-handed, then if you allow them to use Strength to attack you're basically dropping the versatile feature for the Finesse feature. Honestly, why not just take a rapier and call it an Elven Longsword.

Additionally you are forgetting that the 2e Kit fighter/wizard was basically a near full casting progression class (2e level progression meant that multi-class casters were usually only a level or two behind) and was also not really part of any niche. Unlike single class fighters, they had far fewer HPs and a much lower (higher?) Thac0. The current caster based version of the Bladesinger is actually far closer to the original 2e kit, than the 3.5e iteration simply due to the different multi-classing systems.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Just in regard to the strength or dexterity use for the weapon that they gain from bladesinger, you may want it to clarify it to include racial weapons since elves are already proficient with the longsword which means that they won't actually gain the ability to use one with dexterity unless you allow them to choose it again.

Would I would do is allow them to select longsword as their weapon to gain the special benefit.

I'm confused.

There were a lot of inter-related points in my OP, so I'm not surprised if I failed to adequately explain it.

What's this discussion about Elven Chain proficiency? I wouldn't make Elven Chain a light armor (that comes with all kinds of balance concerns) I'd simply allow Bladesong to work in Elven Chain.

The problem with only allowing it to work in elven chain is that bladesingers won't be using chain at all unless they find elven chain, which is sad. The lesser issue of allowing them to be proficient in and use Bladesong with any chain shirts instead, is that elven chain is then no longer anything special to them. It's nothing more than a +1 version of an armor they can already use.

Bladesinger was a 2e kit from the Complete Book of Elves (1993),in 2e alone it was well predated by the elven chain (1989). Elven chain was original a special feature for elf wizards it's usefulness to Bladesingers was a happy coincidence.

In 2e, Bladesingers used Strength for attack and damage just like anyone else. I don't see how forcing them to be Strength based in this edition is any different. That being said, the only difference between a rapier and a longsword is damage type and the fact that a rapier is finesse while a long sword can be wielded in two hands. Given that bladesong cannot be used two-handed, then if you allow them to use Strength to attack you're basically dropping the versatile feature for the Finesse feature. Honestly, why not just take a rapier and call it an Elven Longsword.

Rapier's work well as a light arming sword (although the game gave elves proficiency in longswords and shortswords while neglecting to give them rapier proficiency for some unfortunate reason), but if Dexterity is your best stat, then elven chain will have no appeal for you as a medium armor. Hence the need to push them into Strength weaponry, and the consequent problem I brought up to your previous point.

Additionally you are forgetting that the 2e Kit fighter/wizard was basically a near full casting progression class (2e level progression meant that multi-class casters were usually only a level or two behind) and was also not really part of any niche. Unlike single class fighters, they had far fewer HPs and a much lower (higher?) Thac0. The current caster based version of the Bladesinger is actually far closer to the original 2e kit, than the 3.5e iteration simply due to the different multi-classing systems.

I'm quite aware of that. I hardly know anything about the 3.5 version.

 

[Rocksome]

The problem with only allowing it to work in elven chain is that bladesingers won't be using chain at all unless they find elven chain, which is sad. The lesser issue of allowing them to be proficient in and use Bladesong with any chain shirts instead, is that elven chain is then no longer anything special to them. It's nothing more than a +1 version of an armor they can already use.

Isn't this exactly the way it worked in 2e though? They couldn't cast spells in any armor unless it was Elven Chain? So I'm not sure what Lore precedent you are trying to match by fixing this editions mechanics. If anything they have the same issues as before but now the added bonus of being able to cast in light armor.

I'm quite aware of that. I hardly know anything about the 3.5 version.

Well, this isn't backed up by what you're saying. You're pushing for a better gestalt version of a fighter mage but besides the HP total the Bladesinger gets the most relevant feature of all melee classes, Extra Attack. In this edition there is no Thac0 or BAB to mimic everyone get's the same proficiency attack bonus. There are no other iconic fighter features for you to gestalt your wizard with. Unless you want to take ALL the fighters features as well and get Third/Fourth Attack. I think the real problem here is that you're trying to be good at everything and are suffering from MAD. You want good AC, attacks and spellcasting and are trying to tweak the class to reduce your MAD. I can see some of your concerns, but their the same concerns had by melee clerics, bladelocks, bards and every other hybrid class.

 

[Celtavian]

Longsword as a finesse weapon breaks nothing. I allow dex or str for all weapons.

Allowing Elven Chain doesn't seem like a big deal, though the Bladesinger already has a very high, problematic AC.

 

[auburn2]

I think of the elven fighter-wizard in chain archetype as the eldritch knight. I generally think of a typical bladesinger as wearing no armor, maybe that is because that is how it is depicted in the swordmage trilogy and because they suffered from arcane failure in 3e if they wore any armor. The image on the prestige class page in 3e also is wearing no armor (and carrying a rapier FWIW).

I really don't see a bladesinger in actual full blown chainmail armor. Chainmail is heavy and bulky, in some respects more so than plate, just a chain shirt is better but it is still going to be heavy on your shoulders and quite cumbersome. Very few players (or NPC bladesingers for that matter) are going to have elven chain so the "standard" if you will can't be a bladesinger in elven chain, it would have to be a bladesinger in actual chain mail and that doesn't seem right considering the are a highly mobile acrobatic class.

I do agree about the longsword being the favored weapon, bladesong is so called for the whistling "song" the sword makes. I don't see this as a problem though since as an elf you would already have proficiency in longsword. There is no strength requirement for a longsword, so I don't get what the issue here is. I understand that your hit and damage might be better with another weapon if your dex is higher than your strength, but I don't see why that means the longsword should be a finesse weapon.