Speculation about "the feelz" of D&D 4th Edition

[MwaO]

4e unarmoured F20 probably has INT 9 DEX 11 (since DEX is a 4e Fighter dump stat) for AC 20, unless he's a Slayer when he might have DEX 14-16. I just created a 4e Slayer-1 and he has +11 to hit at 1st level with the accuracy stance, so hits AC 22 on 11+. Basically identical to a 1e Fighter vs AC 9. So not actually a huge difference from 1e IMO.

Dex is not a 4e Fighter dump stat - all kinds of feats get powered by it, Rain of Blows needs a 15 Dex, Initiative, etc...Fighters really like the 16/14/14/13 array where 16 into Str, 14 into Dex, 14 into Wisdom, and 13 into Con.

and +11 to hit at 1st level is not typical Fighter accuracy. +8 is what you'd expect. 18, +3 for proficiency, +1 for weapon talent.

 

[Parmandur]

Nothing to do with Bell Curves or exponential anything, then. ;|

Yeah, -10 was as low (high) as ACs went. That was a cap of sorts, though one rarely touched. 1e had a lot of de-facto caps in the sense of charts that only went so high, and a few hard caps on things like level for certain races and classes. 5e does have a level cap, but no AC cap or anything - just a limited number of theoretically stackable bonuses (BA). I don't recall the highest AC in a 5e source, but I think it's mid 20s - necessarily less of a span from 10 than 2e's 10 to -10, because of Bounded Accuracy, of course. Meanwhile, the Fighter's THAC0 was mathematically equivalent to +1 to hit per level (and /better/ than a Cleric, Theif, or Wizard's), while the 5e fighter's proficiency bonus increases by ~ +1/5 levels, the same as everyone else.

Yeah, instead of to-hit, the Fighter attacks more; which is probably better?

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[Tony Vargas]

Yeah, instead of to-hit, the Fighter attacks more; which is probably better?

Fighter also got multiple attacks in AD&D - that's where 5e lifted it from.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

What do you think you mean by 'bellcurve of power?' Because, aside from the neat bell curve you by get generating stats with 3d6, I've never heard it applied to D&D before.


More generally, I think it's hard to paint any one edition out of the continuum - though it's really easy to re-arrange it along different dimensions.

3e & 4e are at odds with the other eds in that they're so player-focused, for instance. 4e & 5e are at odds with the rest in that they use uniform advancement of attack rolls. The WotC editions are different in that they use skills. 5e is at odds with all other eds in not assuming magic items will be found as part of advancement. 0D&D and 1e are at odds with all other eds in not having any psionic classes. 2e's handling of 'martial arts' is distinct from other editions'. Etc, etc, etc, &c... ;P

I don't know where to jump back in, this seems like as good a place as any.

2e was designed in part to be backwards compatible with AD&D, although over time it started going beyond that, particularly when the Complete series came out, and even more so with Combat and Tactics and Skills and Powers. Having said that, they were still designed to work with the existing AD&D/2e system, as clunky as it might have been at times.

3e felt a lot like a more logical rewrite of the mess that 2e had become. When the issues with 3e became clear, 3.5e was another evolution. So while there were a lot of differences, they happened in a more gradual sense and a seemingly logical direction, even if you didn't agree with the ultimate direction they took.

And that's the point of the OP. While I think that what the original post considered the important factors in the "feelz" of D&D, 4e broke the mold. It was a bold move, and in some ways I applaud them for that.

5e isn't a return to AD&D or even any other edition. It has many elements of all of them, and a lot of it is new. But the difference (for me anyway) is that you don't quite notice that it's different until you pay attention.

It really is a lot more about perception than anything else I think. There were people who refused to make the switch to 2e, 3e, and even 5e. I think the main difference was that 4e had so many new features and approaches that a larger percentage of gamers objected. I do think it was harder to smooth over the transition to 4e because some things changed so much (like spellcasting and the role of magic items). And there's quite a bit of 5e material that I drop altogether because I just don't care for it. This is mostly lore and certain abilities. But I find the ruleset the most intuitive and easy to modify of any of them. And it feels more and more like AD&D to me, because that's the way I run it.

 

[Parmandur]

Fighter also got multiple attacks in AD&D - that's where 5e lifted it from.

Since my only AD&D character was a Fighter, probably should have remembered that. How many?

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[Tony Vargas]

Since my only AD&D character was a Fighter, probably should have remembered that. How many?

1/level vs less-than-1-HD victims (it's hardly fair to call them opponents at that point), 3/2 at 7th, 2 at 13th, IIRC. Specialization bumped that a step so 3/2 from 1st, 2 @7th, 5/2 @1ths. Ranged weapons used a RoF (2 for bows) as the base instead of 1. TWFing, Weapons of Speed, Haste, ... it could get out of control.

 

[Garthanos]

And that's the point of the OP. While I think that what the original post considered the important factors in the "feelz" of D&D, 4e broke the mold. It was a bold move, and in some ways I applaud them for that. .

Business choice...they didnt want to go with the OGL so it forced that boldness.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Lolth had a -10 AC and the ability to cast Protection from Good in AD&D(for an additional -2 to hit from many opponents)

Right, I'm pretty sure there wasn't anything with a better AC than that. IIRC a level 20 fighter can still hit this AC pretty easily. You start needing a 10 to hit AC 10, and so a level 1 fighter would need a 30 to hit AC -10, except 1e replicates 20 6 times, meaning you actually only need a 24 to hit -10 at level 1, and thus a 4 to hit it at level 20 (I may be off by 1 point give or take). and thus with Protection spell you need a 6.

Of course Lolth isn't really on a par with a level 20 fighter in basic melee terms. She only has 66 hit points, or about 14 hit dice. A more fair comparison thus might be a level 14 fighter, which would hit her on a 10 (or 12). If said fighter has AC-5, she'd roughly hit him on a 5 in return. Of course her attacks are very strong poison, and she's got a LOT of tricks up her sleeve. Maybe Mr High Level Fighter does too, he'd surely have some nasty items if he's fighting demon lords/lesser gods (and if we go with the L&L version of Lolth she's got a bunch of added goodies too!).

Really though the challenge with Lolth is the demonweb, not her. Yochlols are not slouches and there's a LOT of them around, not to mention other types of demons, driders, and other fun stuff.

 

[S'mon]

Dex is not a 4e Fighter dump stat - all kinds of feats get powered by it, Rain of Blows needs a 15 Dex, Initiative, etc...Fighters really like the 16/14/14/13 array where 16 into Str, 14 into Dex, 14 into Wisdom, and 13 into Con.

and +11 to hit at 1st level is not typical Fighter accuracy. +8 is what you'd expect. 18, +3 for proficiency, +1 for weapon talent.

Well I would expect a 20 since I've never seen a Fighter without STR 20. And I'd expect an expertise type feat for another +1. So +10 before stances/powers.

The two 4e 1st level PCs I've made recently were a Dragonborn Warlord who had DEX 10 & +8
to hit (STR 20 +5, +1 feat, +2 prof), and a human Slayer who had max +11 (Str 20 +5, +1 feat, +1 weapon talent, +3 prof, +1 stance). Over the years I've not seen much evidence of PCs starting with 18s - I guess there was a half elf Ranger in 2011 started with 18 DEX.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

1/level vs less-than-1-HD victims (it's hardly fair to call them opponents at that point), 3/2 at 7th, 2 at 13th, IIRC. Specialization bumped that a step so 3/2 from 1st, 2 @7th, 5/2 @1ths. Ranged weapons used a RoF (2 for bows) as the base instead of 1. TWFing, Weapons of Speed, Haste, ... it could get out of control.

In all fairness most of this was 2e though, 1e lacks specialization, and TWFing is pretty much not that useful. Multiple attacks definitely is a big boost though. Monsters generally start getting big attack routines and 'special' attacks by name level too, so it kinda all washes out. It just means your hit points don't mean quite as much as you might think...