D&D 5E Shove attack OP?

[DaveDash]

I house rule anything with four legs is much harder to grapple / shove than normal (disadvantage). Otherwise you end up with Bards flinging elephants around like piñatas.

You can extend this kind of logic as you see fit.



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[Barolo]

I house rule anything with four legs is much harder to grapple / shove than normal (disadvantage). Otherwise you end up with Bards flinging elephants around like piñatas.

You can extend this kind of logic as you see fit.



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In fact, I do the same. I wouldn't call this a house rule, though. To me, this seems to fall on the DM jurisdiction already, as the DM should evaluate the circumstances and apply advantage, disadvantage or none, accordingly.

 

[CapnZapp]

I wouldn't call this a house rule, though. To me, this seems to fall on the DM jurisdiction already, as the DM should evaluate the circumstances and apply advantage, disadvantage or none, accordingly.

Yeah, well, sory I gotta speak up, but that doesn't fly with me.

If the game allows bards flinging elephants around like piñatas, then it deserves flak for that.

There are many gamers frustrated with the extent to which the game favors PCs over monsters; and the decision to be super-stingy with skill proficiences is a real problem.

It simply makes the world less believable when every fighter (and indeed, most characters) can wrestle elephants, and not just wrestling specialists. Running the game on carebear difficulty level is simply not what some of us want and need.

 

[Barolo]

(...) Even a low level fighter can easily get +7 Athletics. As 95% of NPCs/creatures have neither a Str save or athletics proficiency, its exceedingly rare for an opponent to make a successful check against a shove attack? (...)

Just to address this part, actually, it is not extremely rare for an opponent to resist. Surely the advantage is on the fighter side, but as both sides are rolling a d20, the results are rather swingy. In the particular case you just pointed, if the enemy has 10 str & dex and no proficiency in athletics or acrobatics, it still has 22.75% chance to resist the shove. Even pathetic kobolds have a better chance (30%), as they can just roll dex. Curiously enough, it is easier to shove a hobgoblin than the pesky kobold.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

Shove can either move a target 5 feet away or to knock the target prone. Both of these are useful, but not overpowered, since it takes an entire Bonus Action to achieve this in addition to using your Action to Attack.

If you shove target 5 feet away then they are now out of range of any opportunity attack against you, unless they have a reach weapon. Your archer allies can now fire at them without the +2 AC for being in combat. You could have done something similar by taking the Disengage Action and using your Bonus Action for something else.

If you knock the target prone then you have advantage to attack them (if you have any attacks left this round) but all your archer allies have disadvantage to hit. Your target can still attack you (including opportunity attacks), but at disadvantage.

In any case, the foe can stand up or move on their next turn, meaning shove is of less use the fewer PCs have their turn between the fighter and the foe.

Shove is not automatic though - the target gets an attempt to resist, using the best of STR\Athletics and DEX\Acrobatics. Sadly, very few foes have STR\Athletics proficiency and even fewer have DEX\Acrobatics.

I do feel your frustration though. My fix for this issue has been to give Athletics proficiency to foes I feel really should have it. For example, animals associated with strength (gorillas, bears), martial foes (bugbears, hobgoblins, devils). Not every foe, though - we have to give characters the chance to shine and feel badass.

Also, what do you mean "low-level fighter?" A +7 on STR\Athletics means a Strength of 20 for a level 4 or lower Fighter. That is not easy to get. A bard or rogue would still struggle to reach +7, as they would have to have Strength 16, unlikely for those classes.

Short answer: Shoving is situational, not overpowered.

P.S. elephants are huge creatures. Unless your bard is a giant, they are not flinging elephants around.

 

[Barolo]

Yeah, well, sory I gotta speak up, but that doesn't fly with me.

If the game allows bards flinging elephants around like piñatas, then it deserves flak for that.

There are many gamers frustrated with the extent to which the game favors PCs over monsters; and the decision to be super-stingy with skill proficiences is a real problem.

It simply makes the world less believable when every fighter (and indeed, most characters) can wrestle elephants, and not just wrestling specialists. Running the game on carebear difficulty level is simply not what some of us want and need.

Elephants are huge, therefore only wrestle-able if the hero is enlarged.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

I house rule anything with four legs is much harder to grapple / shove than normal (disadvantage).

I like that idea.

All together now, *taps on the blackboard*
Four legs good, two legs bad. Four legs good, two legs bad.

 

[Prism]

I like that idea.

All together now, *taps on the blackboard*
Four legs good, two legs bad. Four legs good, two legs bad.

'And they think they have it hard' said the prone snake to the prone giant slug

 

[Flamestrike]

The shield bash from Shield Master feat uses your bonus action and you can only use it if you are going to use or have used the Attack action that round. So, they aren't giving up an attack for this.

Now, the Shove action which anyone can use, does use an Attack from the Attack action in place of an actual attack.

You're giving up your bonus action that could be used for something else.

Such as polearm Master and its bonus action attack.

 

[Xeviat]

Though this happens all the time (player characters have excellent AC, lots of monsters have weak attack bonuses), so what's the difference in practical play?

For me, something seems cooler, and less douchey (or maybe more honorable), for a knockdown to be in reaction to something rather than a constant, deliberate attempt.


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