D&D 5E Where does optimizing end and min-maxing begin? And is min-maxing a bad thing?

[doctorbadwolf]

I'm curious...Do you bother trying to roleplay the character according to the Int score you choose? Does anybody do so in your group?

Ya know how sometimes ya dislike something, really really stongly, and like...the dislike itself isn't really irrational, but the severity of it is?

That's me, with DM's and groups that insist that someone "has" to "roleplay their stats".

Like...are you gonna make the bard player make a new character because his RL charisma is, at best, a 10? Are you really gonna kvetch at the low strength rogue player every time he grabs his pack and doesn't roleplay grunting with effort?

Why? Why any of it? Unless someone has an int of less than 8 somehow, they aren't necessarily actually stupid. 8 can just as easily be a perfectly normal person who isn't "book smart", because the have a low education level, and never applied themselves to such pursuits. Especially a high Wis character with low Int. But even if it is strictly a marker of the person's IQ (imagining, for a moment, that IQ is unambiguously an accurate system of measurement), so what? an 8 is slightly less intelligent than the general average. Ok. So...for 90% of situations, a typical person.

More importantly:

Why would I ever, as a player, put up with anyone at the table telling me what my stat numbers mean for my character?
Why would I ever, as a DM, feel like I have the right to do that to one of my players?

 

[76512390ag12]

It has indeed, and it is pertinent here. Bear with me.. have a cup of char and relax your breeches.
There are two types of players ontologically: the numbers type and the yeehah! type.
The numbers type sees the way to understand the fundamental reality of being in a game through the stats and the systems, and they are the most likely to want to control and optimise, min-max and have lots of fun through the numbers. Many don't like random, at least when it comes to character gen, but not all.
The yeehah! type, appreciates the experience, the holistic whole of the game as a journey from A to B, a reality that may or may not be arbitrated through numbers, dice, dialogue, social interplay or the mood of the players.
This is, of course, not the only way to divide gamers or gamers, it doesn't map cleanly onto GNS or any other conceptual approach, but I suggest, when you are in a cave, lit by torches, and you see the *shadow* of a dragon thrown on the cave wall... how you react will have more than a touch to do with how you fall on that divide..

* Apologies & Kudos to Parmenides, Anaxagoras, Leucippus, Plato, Ron Edwards, and Robin Laws.

 

[Nathal]

Why would I ever, as a player, put up with anyone at the table telling me what my stat numbers mean for my character?
Why would I ever, as a DM, feel like I have the right to do that to one of my players?

I get it. You shouldn't have to put up with that. It's why I did away with INT, WIs and Charisma scores when designing my Eldritch RPG.


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[Caliban]

More importantly:

Why would I ever, as a player, put up with anyone at the table telling me what my stat numbers mean for my character?
Why would I ever, as a DM, feel like I have the right to do that to one of my players?

Ooh, ooh! I know! Because many of us are poorly socialized individuals with control issues?

 

[JonnyP71]

More importantly:

Why would I ever, as a player, put up with anyone at the table telling me what my stat numbers mean for my character?
Why would I ever, as a DM, feel like I have the right to do that to one of my players?

Because, y'know, there are quite a few players and DMs who see the stats as more than just 'something that affect in game dice rolls', and actually use them as a key part of character creation, in the background, in the choice of style of play, and in the general portrayal of the character.

And when I say 'quite a few', I mean a hell of a lot..... including everyone I've gamed with in the last 6 years since I came back to the hobby and played RPGs in mainly adult groups.

It might be a key point that none of us ever use point buy, so we don't get to pick and choose in such a 'scientific' manner, we roll the dice, arrange, adapt and play what we have. Because, to us, that's a core aspect of roleplaying... a low Int character making intentionally wrong choices, a low Cha character roleplayed as being abrasive/awkward when dealing with NPCs, a low Str character refusing to attempt heavy lifting because of a 'bad back' or similar excuses, and so on.

 

[Caliban]

Because, y'know, there are quite a few players and DMs who see the stats as more than just 'something that affect in game dice rolls', and actually use them as a key part of character creation, in the background, in the choice of style of play, and in the general portrayal of the character.

And when I say 'quite a few', I mean a hell of a lot..... including everyone I've gamed with in the last 6 years since I came back to the hobby and played RPGs in mainly adult groups.

It might be a key point that none of us ever use point buy, so we don't get to pick and choose in such a 'scientific' manner, we roll the dice, arrange, adapt and play what we have. Because, to us, that's a core aspect of roleplaying... a low Int character making intentionally wrong choices, a low Cha character roleplayed as being abrasive/awkward when dealing with NPCs, a low Str character refusing to attempt heavy lifting because of a 'bad back' or similar excuses, and so on.

To quote a great sage:

Numbers don't actually exist, you know that don't you?

 

[iserith]

Because, y'know, there are quite a few players and DMs who see the stats as more than just 'something that affect in game dice rolls', and actually use them as a key part of character creation, in the background, in the choice of style of play, and in the general portrayal of the character.

And when I say 'quite a few', I mean a hell of a lot..... including everyone I've gamed with in the last 6 years since I came back to the hobby and played RPGs in mainly adult groups.

It might be a key point that none of us ever use point buy, so we don't get to pick and choose in such a 'scientific' manner, we roll the dice, arrange, adapt and play what we have. Because, to us, that's a core aspect of roleplaying... a low Int character making intentionally wrong choices, a low Cha character roleplayed as being abrasive/awkward when dealing with NPCs, a low Str character refusing to attempt heavy lifting because of a 'bad back' or similar excuses, and so on.

I bet not many people would object to a player making such choices. Rather, the objection is some people telling other people that their portrayal of a character with a given ability score isn't correct.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

To quote a great sage:

First rule of internet forums: Don't feed the trolls.

Anyone who doesn't believe in numbers is an obvious troll.

 

[Caliban]

First rule of internet forums: Don't feed the trolls.

Anyone who doesn't believe in numbers is an obvious troll.

Unbeliev...I mean Believer! Open you your eyes to the truth!

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Now we have another dilemma: What is "Telling others what to do" and what is "Showing others a good way to do it"?

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